Weapon "Sysyem" Feedback and Rant (vid)

20

Remember the above is my personal thoughts on the current game's weapon state and advantages and disadvantages. Feel free to leave your own views on the current state of the weapon system down below! - Have a great weekend. 

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Weapon "Sysyem" Feedback and Rant (vid)
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13 days ago
BrotherLazarus

Yep. But what i am saying is it would be silly to have a normal sniper rifle able to  use the long-las Aoe attack with a bullet/Phys weapon. As in chop and change powers.

13 days ago
Posted by Christs 13 days ago

Great Video @Airsick hydra

There will always be plus/minus to every system. But you have brought all of them to the surface.

From what i am seeing from the plan's we will get some input on which single/AoE/amourbuster powers we get to use. But i would hate to see for ex. a sniper rifle with energy beam rapid fire. I have never played any Warhammer games or seen any media so not going to comment on lore. 


I have played every(well almost) arpg since D1 some for 1 hr, some for years. This one is different to them all. Great to see some real innovations to it.

Long-las (energy sniper weapon) in Martyr has a full auto mode.


As for the lore, it's.. so broad, and frequently contradictory, that those of us deeply steeped in it argue almost as much as the Vatican. A Grimdark Vatican. So basically, the community already embodies the Inquisitorial spirit! :)

13 days ago
+1

Great Video @Airsick hydra

There will always be plus/minus to every system. But you have brought all of them to the surface.

From what i am seeing from the plan's we will get some input on which single/AoE/amourbuster powers we get to use. But i would hate to see for ex. a sniper rifle with energy beam rapid fire. I have never played any Warhammer games or seen any media so not going to comment on lore. 


I have played every(well almost) arpg since D1 some for 1 hr, some for years. This one is different to them all. Great to see some real innovations to it.

13 days ago
Reptilienski

I think that's what makes the ability to respec so nice to have, really...


So far I've respecced my primary Crusader a few times to try different things because folks have brought up stuff I was interested in trying. I futzed around with it for a few missions, didn't really fit my style, so I went back (or in a couple cases stuck with them, my Crusader alt with the twin lifeleach autopistols for plugging choke points). Except... for the sniper rifles. I was convinced they were godawful, until I started putting points in the Single Target DPS tree (the vindi tree seems a mite underpowered compared to that)... and I never looked back.


Coupling the ability to respec in a simple way with the broad variety of tools at hand and you're bound to come across stuff that fits, potentially even discovering that you like something you'd never look twice at otherwise.

13 days ago
Reptilienski

Very neatly said. I'd give you 5 thumbs up but i'm capped at 1. 

13 days ago

Great point, already had comment on Youtbe, just paste my comments here again.


Agree with most of the part, I think I feel the same as you, when recall to about last build of the game to this current one, though some of the game system changed, the core system of the game or the weapon system itself still make me wanna to craft the same weapon as the last build, not because that's the only weapon that is useful in the game, i think it is because that the current weapon set i was using is enough for most of the situation in game so i do not need to change it.I could somehow forseen that if the system dont change i would still using the same weapon set even in the future release build of the game.Agree with that this is good for a new player to learn the basic system of the game, but for a player like me whom is aimed for looking for a game that could play for more than 1 year, i dont think this is a good way to make me play that long, or in other word, if the game stop update someday, i may quickly lost my interest to it. Actually to be honest right now what make me still playing Martyr is that i know this game is not finished so i want to know what would changed in next update, so if this game one day offically released, I may try that build for maybe months and then stop play.


So in my own opinion, maybe not for everyone, the really interesting part or the unipe part of Martyr right not is that we could always have some new stuff to play in the coming new build of the game, but the game itself somehow already make the player have a concept about what this game should be, so most player currently playing it would not want to change their mind so in every builds of the game, one particularly player would always play in the same style. Yes, different players would have different styles, but the problem is, the game in some ways dont make one player want to or desire to change his/her playe style, so for the player himself/herself, he/she would feel boring at last. I have a lot of experience  when I want to recommond my own style to the other players in my cabal, but they refused to change, and when they recommend their style to me, I would also refused to try it, I think that's the problem here.

14 days ago
Airsick Hydra

I'm aware of the mission modifier bonuses... and getting +2k XP is not worth doing a mission 2 ranks above my PL if it takes four times as long as a 4k XP mission--which comes down to the whole efficiency thing I normally scorn hearing (but I just want to have fun dammit keep your spreadsheets out of my gami--oh, I see what you mean now, Mister Grinder. Oh dear.).


It's not worth the 12,500 XP for a solo mission if it takes me 30 minutes to complete on my Assassin, when I can do three other missions at 9,800 XP each in that same amount of time... or six at 6,000 XP. In other words, solo content is kinda off-kilter compared to group content, in a huge way (50k XP vs 12k XP). Normally you see at most +100% XP for a full group, not +200% (and change), and efficiency directs that one go and plow through content "below-level" rather than actually seek a challenge (which I would be inclined to, if the challenge came with an appropriate amount of reward for time invested).


I've commented previously on the nature of adjustments, and needing to appeal to the broadest possible userbase--including real feelings of gain in smaller time chunks so that the casual players, and there will be casual players, no matter how some folks we've chatted with in general might think they won't matter/exist--and the current way XP is handled even rubs me the wrong way, and I've been more than willing to run dozens of missions over and over and over and over... and over... and over.


So it's only reasonable to add the experience loop to the list of things that need some addressing--I'm still PL2 because I haven't seen a driving reason to hit the next PL, I'm starting to lose interest in hitting level 20 on the Assassin even though I need to, to give decent feedback on available assassin weapons, I'm starting to lose interest in general outside of logging in to do my Directives and chat, because the current "coop is simply better in every way, peasant" functionality is problematic when your ISP decides to screw off for two weeks and leave you with patchy, high latency dialup speeds.


And while I'm not going to belabor the whole "always online is a cancerous move in gaming that should have been nipped in the bud a decade ago" point that some other posters have vehemently made already, it really does cause issues when the solo experience is hurt not just because I can't play when my ISP decides to sync up Dark Side of the Moon to The Wizard of Oz, but because when I can connect, it slowly becomes grindier than a Korean MMO.


Just more information to add to the growing tumor that is my list of criticism and feedback.

14 days ago
+1
BrotherLazarus

Probably worth mentioning the re-balance of the leveling system hasn't had a tweak since it's first implementation. That's due next month. What we are currently going through for each level is a completely raw version without tweaks. 


X-P is a tricky thing and basically comes down to the same as gear - You get Xp based on the mission modifier. Which is a nice feature in a way because it means you still progress even when playing with weaker team mates. I guess it also means there isn't any need to have creep in Xp quantities needed to level though. Most games that have that also have creep in Xp rewards. - Likely something that will change - i'd imagine an X amount of missions = 1 level formula after - we will have to wait and see.

15 days ago

And because I can't edit my comment once I close my browser (that makes it really hard to throw in addendums, guys)...


One other issue is that as you continue, outside of tarot missions... you don't see an increase in XP gains. You get more powerful, but you still have the same awards every mission. Even if it's only a few thousand more XP, at-level (at PL in this case) content should provide a tangible award, or there's no reason to continue along the PL train; at 80+ thousand XP per level (and sharply increasing when you hit account levels), there should be some incentive to continue further down the content tree than simply "you'll get shiny equipment", especially when that shiny equipment is technically no better (mechanically speaking) than the trusty green gear you already had.

15 days ago
+1
Posted by Airsick Hydra 15 days ago

I think we are more alike than you might think. My boredom is mostly for the same reason. 


The reason for many of my concerns is because I don't think the average steam gamer is going to be like us. We chose to pay into an Alpha just because we love 40k or got really excited by the prospect of the game and as a result many of us are quite emotionally invested. But I don't expect the same behaviour from the "masses" once the game gains more publicity - and it's up to the wallets of the masses to decide if this game is a success or a failure financially. Call me a pessimist! But I want all bases covered :D  

Therein lies the root of much of my feedback, as well.


Realistically speaking, the power level system is going to be a razor-thin line to walk--while it's good for allowing "lowbies" and higher power characters to group up and even provides incentive to (I still get great XP for taking PL1 level1 toons through tarot runs, so I get rewarded and they get rewarded, everyone ones), the current implementation is clearly not set up in a way that rewards anything but grinding--120 hours this patch so far and I still haven't broken PL3, because I've been stuck playing solo for the last week. That bleeds into points made about other systems as well.


I think all of us in the alpha feel the sting of boredom from time to time. In my case, I switch between characters when I start burning out, to play the game completely differently--but that won't be a fix for many. It's part of the reason why I don't expect any Steam releases pre-1.0 to be a good thing these days--Founders programs are great and all, but as I've shared elsewhere the majority of players that get into any early access title burn out, or don't understand what "alpha/beta client" means. And with every minor issue magnified a thousandfold by casual players, review bombing is a huge problem (which of course Steam refuses to fix because why bother fixing their platform when they can expect the community to do it for them!).

15 days ago
ctiger

I think we are more alike than you might think. My boredom is mostly for the same reason. 


The reason for many of my concerns is because I don't think the average steam gamer is going to be like us. We chose to pay into an Alpha just because we love 40k or got really excited by the prospect of the game and as a result many of us are quite emotionally invested. But I don't expect the same behaviour from the "masses" once the game gains more publicity - and it's up to the wallets of the masses to decide if this game is a success or a failure financially. Call me a pessimist! But I want all bases covered :D  

This comment was edited 15 days ago by Airsick Hydra
15 days ago

Obviously, I can only speak for myself. Right now the biggest cause of "boredom" for me is the lack of content, which will be addressed over time.  


In the meantime, this is how I deal with it: Play different weapons, play multiple characters. I know you don't think that is enough Hydra, but it has been for me. So far, when I have stopped playing, it has been because I have burned myself out on the existing content. 

This comment was edited 15 days ago by ctiger
15 days ago
Airsick Hydra

Well you see, DMRs and sniper rifles are two different--nah, I'm just screwing with you. I got somewhat wordy there with the other thread but contrary to popular belief I can control it to a degree... usually. As a "mallet magos", you can imagine that I am a pain to watch action movies with.


I think that the aimed shots should remain quite powerful--that's what they're there for after all. Nerfing the one thing it should shine at would be an issue, but the AoE for slugthrower snipers should definitely be looked at--as well as the autofire for the long-las. Both turn the single-target burst damage weapon into an assault rifle/payload rifle with single-target burst damage feeling tacked on. The Exitus I still need to spend a few hours with, but with it being locked behind level 20 and not having my usual XP gains in that last few levels from coop means I'm stuck with a basic SP rifle for.... probably another few days... but I would, based on the tooltips, say that the Exitus is probably a lot closer to what I'd expect to see from a sniper rifle (what with the charged aims and blow-through damage rather than godly AoE or fully automatic fire modes). I'll get back to you on that one when I finally claw my way to 20 and equip one for a few hours.


A short bit though: The real reason we stick with boltguns vs. repeaters for true sniper rifles is largely a machining issue--it wasn't until rather recently that repeaters would lock up the same way consistently enough to allow for the sub-MOA accuracy required from true sniper engagement ranges, and even now the bolt action is still more consistent on bolt face positioning to keep it in the lead.

15 days ago
BrotherLazarus

If we are talking balance then I sort of agree. I've been saying that the snipers are a little too strong since they first came out. The extus has piercing or some combination of really nice affixes on every ability in particular. Doesn't shine as much with AOE packs. The regular sniper however, AOE god with it's 1.5 CD on explosive round. - I think some minor balance tweaks are needed though, not really an overhaul. 


As for the rapid fire thing - Having been overly interested in guns for far too many years due to an unhealthy interest in Airsoft. I can't imagine in the grim, dark future that there are only bolt action rifles xD surely that far into the future and with such advances it's not too much to imagine the guns being magazine fed and DMR like Rof is somewhat forgivable. 


plea don't give me a massive text wall on RL guns now xD pretty please. 

15 days ago
Posted by Airsick Hydra 15 days ago

Not sure on the volume - no one else has reported that issue back to me? - I tend to base the amp on a certain range within the processing side of things. Can always bump it 2-3 DB if people find they are a little quiet. 


Re lack of rotataions - although I didn't say it - it was largely in reference to ranged combat. Melee tend to have CD's tied to more abilities which naturally slot into a more rotataion style of gameplay. That being said it's still only a case of a priority system, not rotation system.


You can find the skill within one of the ranged trees that reduces C/D by 50% when swapping now :) it used to be a perk.

Returning to your last point on snipers. If you want every weapon to be viable as a main hand then each weapon has to be capable of the same broad functions. What you are asking for is to change the core games mechanics to a Mainhand / Offhand" system. While it works in many games it's fairly clear to see that isn't the intention for Martyr which has a Mainhand/Mainhand where you exchange small advantages. Not to everyone's tastes clearly as some like weapons to be job-specific. Personally I like it because it increases the effective weapon pool dramatically and lets players pick the weapons they are most fond of due to their own personal experience with the 40k universe.  

Per the Sniper Rifle, my issue is that the solid sniper feels a little too much like an assault rifle type weapon with the sniper function as an afterthought, more than anything else. I find that, in the sniper rifles I've used this build, too much focus is on the "brrrrrrrrrt" and then the aimed shot feels somewhat... tacked on. It's more a matter than the sniper rifles so far feel too good at all of the jobs--compare to the jack of all trades autogun or bolter. They're both solid weapons, but they're outdone on aimed shot by sniper rifles, volume of fire by the heavy bolter, crowd control and armor by melta/plasma/etc, and clumpsmash by grenade launcher. Now, the sniper rifle rolls up my grenade launcher (I think the rifle I have on right now actually does more damage per explosive shot than my grenade launcher does, in fact!), my aimed shot, and my autogun spam, in addition to a solid semi-auto fire mode. As much as I hate to be That Guy, the sniper rifle specifically feels like The Gun when I'm on my assassin, and I have no real reason to swap to my off-weapon at all unlike my Crusader, where I switch between the two sets fairly frequently (more on that in the next paragraph).


The C/D drop is still a perk, so I would suppose that once "MISSING SKILL" is removed the skill will reduce that by 50% as well and turn it into a 25% thing... which may still be a bit too long, honestly. Frequently on my assassin, I don't swap weapons even if my second weapon set is going to be better at a job than the sniper rifle; while on my crusader the cooldowns are so short (none over maybe 5 seconds outside of shield rush) there isn't any real penalty to swapping in the heat of the moment; and that just dropped even further when I popped that perk on.


It just feels too... good. And that's rare, usually in gaming sniper rifles are outdone by literally everything else because developers don't seem to understand that black synthetic plastic does not change the fact that assault rifles are still firing itty bitty low powered rounds compared to the big honking (up to 10x the mass, without getting into anti-materiel rounds) slugs thrown at a much larger engagement envelope... but that gets into "modern devs killed shooting because they decided that instead of making coming up with tactics an integral part of the game, it made more sense to nerf everything but the assault rifle because players were lazy and didn't bother to think, instead complained about shotguns/sniper rifles/SMGs so hard they were turned into a mockery of their real world counterparts in 'realism shooter sims'". *Cough* ANYWAY.

15 days ago
BrotherLazarus

Not sure on the volume - no one else has reported that issue back to me? - I tend to base the amp on a certain range within the processing side of things. Can always bump it 2-3 DB if people find they are a little quiet. 


Re lack of rotataions - although I didn't say it - it was largely in reference to ranged combat. Melee tend to have CD's tied to more abilities which naturally slot into a more rotataion style of gameplay. That being said it's still only a case of a priority system, not rotation system.


You can find the skill within one of the ranged trees that reduces C/D by 50% when swapping now :) it used to be a perk.

Returning to your last point on snipers. If you want every weapon to be viable as a main hand then each weapon has to be capable of the same broad functions. What you are asking for is to change the core games mechanics to a Mainhand / Offhand" system. While it works in many games it's fairly clear to see that isn't the intention for Martyr which has a Mainhand/Mainhand where you exchange small advantages. Not to everyone's tastes clearly as some like weapons to be job-specific. Personally I like it because it increases the effective weapon pool dramatically and lets players pick the weapons they are most fond of due to their own personal experience with the 40k universe.  

15 days ago
+2

My largest issue with your videos is that they're so quiet. Are you recording voiceovers in your editing program, as you play, or externally? It's been a while but I generally have to tweak my voiceover volume up a bit too.


Right around 4-6 minutes in you mention a lack of rotations--this is true for much of the ranged combat but I think you're seriously discounting melee combat with that. My experience with the Assassin weapons is that it's important to stack your various marks with the dash, combo, and cleave abilities to increase the damage done with your finisher button (2, on most of my weapons). Likewise, many of the crusader 1h melee weapons I've futzed about with aside from the chainsword benefit from doing more than one thing; the power axe/storm shield seems to work best with the simple LMB>RMB>LMB>RMB>2 rot, which honestly is essentially on par with MOBA complexity (with four buttons you're not going to get Dragoon-level rots after all).


I don't disagree at all with the weapon switching--while I dislike changing my primary outside of a set character concept I've warmed to the idea (though there are some I just generally dislike using as they're outside of my playstyle), there isn't a lot of incentive to try new weapons out at the moment beyond being forced to spend 3-5 levels stuck with one until the next tier of that "type" unlocks. For that matter, I still find some issues with the native weapon swap cooldown reset--yes there's a (missing) skill that drops that, and a perk that allows you to drop half of it, but in play it tends to mean that I might swap before a room and end up with idle time (up to 15 seconds of it) rather than from cover to fluidly address a new threat, or I just won't swap at all.


That last clause, penalizing weapon swap, I think is the worst; as it seems to be part of the reason sniper rifles have a spray and pray ability (it's a sniper rifle, Neocore, sniper rifles aren't select fire!). IMO, sniper rifles should be about precision aimed shots, not split between one aimed shot, "normal fire" (wut), and a pair of other rapid-fire/group attacks. I'm a bit tilted about the sniper rifles at the moment, as they seem to not be very good at their job in order to be tactically flexible in ways no sniper rifle should be (sure there's the Barret 26mm Payload Delivery Rifle, but that's essentially a manpack autocannon and not a sniper rifle). If I have a sniper rifle, I should have incentive to have a backup weapon that does what the sniper rifle doesn't; I shouldn't sacrifice single-target damage in order to do.. well, what you were doing in the video. AoE munitions are interesting, sure, but after long enough it tends to crack the suspension of disbelief (for example, real world snipers issued proper sniper rifles rather than DMRs tend to have a carbine, and then a spotter with a squad automatic, that boltgun isn't being used for all of the above), and while I have a number of good reasons to swap on my Crusader in-mission I almost never have any reason to do so on my assassin. Having incentive to swap in-mission would go a long way towards having incentive to swap your loadout itself, I think.

15 days ago

I think the options were to try and have different reload and mag sizes for 1h / pistol and pistol / pistol. For the main reason that you can't have 1h/P doing 50% of the damage of the counterpart - it would just be too weak. 


Perhaps as well it was to reduce reload times? - Not entirely sure in all honesty. 


While it doesn't "make a lot of sense" - the guns themselves feel fairly well balanced.

15 days ago
Dead God

I think the options were to try and have different reload and mag sizes for 1h / pistol and pistol / pistol. For the main reason that you can't have 1h/P doing 50% of the damage of the counterpart - it would just be too weak. 


Perhaps as well it was to reduce reload times? - Not entirely sure in all honesty. 


While it doesn't "make a lot of sense" - the guns themselves feel fairly well balanced.

15 days ago
+1

At the moment i play with 2 boltpistols rather funny i would say but locigly it maks no sens that if both weapons have the same abilities that i only can use it one time and then it goes on cooldown. I mean they both the same so the game should let me use the ability twice in a row and then go on cooldown but iam aware of it that could be lead to overpowerness. Whats your opinion on that matter ?