Thinking out loud re the levelling system (vid)


Just some thoughts on the current setup for levelling - ofc taking into consideration the recent letter from the producer. Hopefully it stirrs some discussion or is of some use. 

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Thinking out loud re the levelling system (vid)
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6 years 285 days ago

Levelling system will be redesigned (posted on Steam), but not in October patch. I think that arguments against current system were very good, and devs recognized them.

Constructive propositions can help the game much.

6 years 285 days ago

I get where Neocore is coming from with those 2 XP rankings but the are not usefull. Make a leveltree up to a set number of inquisitor levels and after this start a other tree that gives you account wide "Benefits from the Emperor". If you make diaboesk with trees you can put points in or some simply benefits that scale like reduced crafting time, more dmg, more resis, more hp, more supression aso.

This would make the levelexperience clear, the PR still viable and would give some players long time motivation. If you put in some art stuff like "At point xy you glow because you are favoured" or give some costume options because you are so ultra players will grind for that stuff. The good thing about such a progression is that you can make it endless and shove arround exp points from leagues and stuff to the main account. 

Bottom line: I like the system of MU Legend if someone saw it or the devs are intrested in it, look it up ^^.

6 years 288 days ago

Why so gloomy?

Most of changes required are easy fixes (though dealing with basic concepts of the game), and some are added just in the last patch (fate). It's EA, try-and-see and those proved as not so good ideas, so it's a good time to start fixing them.

Wouldn't know about Exp%, we do get Attributes from Heroic Deeds, should value for something. For an unfinished game, we don't know how much are there, could be much more later and therefore significantly greater help for beginners. But then again, maybe some Exp bonus would do, too...

(On that matter, Snakefist thinks that Attributes will definitelly be rebalance - take Toughness and on 10 there are 30HP/sec, and the next 3 are... what some moderate affix or 1-2 defense skill bonus - personally, wouldn't ever willingly invest 20 in toughness for some petty 5% bonuses. But, solvable by balancing)

6 years 288 days ago

It pains me to say this snake, but I think I agree with 95% of what you just said. 

My only point of difference would be that giving some players the knowledge that playing through a second character won't take as long to get to the "end game" is something players are accustomed to, taking that away will come with backlash.

Personally i'd be happy with just giving new characters a % of extra experience rather than inflating their stats. In a system that has difficulty based on your power rating, it doesn't make sense to have inflated alts without a means to provide alts with increased difficulty (talking story / campaign / tarrots here)

6 years 288 days ago

Except Inquisitor levels aren't (in theory) important at all. First 20 unlocks the gear, which is fine, rest (and there could, or shouldn't be 50 of them, ballpark numbers, 20 is enough if not too much at all) - rest are just affix/weapon strength modifiers.

Nothing that Acc-levels couldn't accomplish by themselves. 

Mighty Snakefist, in His Omniscience, foresaw long ago that any kind of D3 'inventions' applied to a better games are nothing but a burden. Paragons especially. Making the starting of a new character easier? Why:

- at all?

- having a 'new character' with 200 skill levels + inherent respec (which is also abhorred by Snakefist)?

The result of such a design is semi-omnipotent character, with:

- major bonuses to damage, crits, movement, defense - whatever Attributes and Skill Levels can provide

- probably endless riches 

- number of found things, such as blueprints, such Innocluator components, such as crafting teches and stash

- probably items for starting levels, too

In *current* state, Snakefist would:

- Completely remove Inquisitor levels, since Account can do the same. OR remove Account, since Inquisitor can do the same - this one may be better

- Renounce START-TO-END Paragon system - even in a deeply, deeply flawed game like D3, not the FIRST level is a Paragon (and not nearly as powerful). Snakefist would remove word Paragon from gaming dictionary completely, which will, of course, meet a fierce opposition without any arguments

- Stashes, blueprint - they may stay, don't do much damage

- On Fate/Exp maps - this should be easy and obvious, some could give one, some other, some perhaps both. No need of confusing anyone with "this-is-just-for-THIS", but "this-is-just-for-THAT". That system is self-explanatory and natural, even with initial mistakes, new players will understand it in few missions. Or, at once.

- Tarot is an obvious Fate-sink, and could stay the same. No reasons why something *else* wouldn't be, maybe another tarot-type or tarot cards, which give something else, say more Exp and rarely items, in exchange for Fate

- Fate, in general, could be a powerful motivation for more playtime. Snakefist, for instance, doesn't care for Tarot anymore (at this state, he has everything he needs). 'Weak' sinks like Artificer Skilltree are one-time only. So, thousands of Fate points he has. And no use. Can't give them, can't spend them rationally. There is a rumour that late crafting will use Fate, but there's a school of thought which says late crafting won't be needed that much at all (which of course raises an important questions of item-hunt, either it's the best source, or it's not; or are materials? A deep topic). Anyway, Fate is an opportunity which could be used well, with the wise planning

- Rethink CAREFULLY of what should and shouldn't be respec-able - the concept of respecing skills anytime, no punishment at all seems rotten in nature. Some talks we heard, something 'pay a Inq-level, respec a skilltree'. PoE requires those tomes. TL2 allows respec for only last 3 skills. All those seem fair

6 years 288 days ago

Thanks for the reply buddy :)

I'll just point out what I mean by complex vs complicated. 

  • Complicated would = a mess of systems / features etc that's hard to understand. In this case I agree with you, the system isn't hard to understand. It's only challenge is that it's so different to usual games that you have to take a second and third look at it when you first pick up the game to really absorb it. 
  • But complexity - meaning "extra layers of depth" - Here's where I think it is "too complex" - Simply for the reason that if we are going to have a 1:1 ratio of rank to skill points to rank through leveling then having two systems in place as well as two different experience types from different content is... Hard to justify. 

Yes there's "a" benefit to the system. It allows you to play with alts as smurfs, so story content you do with an alt will be dramatically easier than your first play through. Those +50 skill points will make all the missions a cake walk. But note here that other games usually give you a difficulty setting to make the content match your character. You can't do that in Martyr so you are stuck doing a power rating mission identical to the one on your previous character, but with +50 skill points this time.
 Personally I don't find this an advantage, if I make an alt I would like to level quicker than my previous character - But I don't want all of the content to be easier and have all challenge removed. Ofc that's just my personal tastes but I don't see how it's rewarding.

But.... Either way if the only benefit of the system is to make leveling alts easier.. then this could be done in lots of other ways without having to resort to two different experience types and experience pools. At least that's my thinking.

Happy monday too! :D / :(

6 years 289 days ago


I see what you are discussing about. The account levels somehow correspond to Paragons in Diablo3, the stuff you'd get in the end, once your character is at maximum Rank, here on WHKIM. 

But I don't agree with you. The system isn't that complex. What we need right now to make it a little less mystical is a word about missions types and what they give. Because it is were it hurts, newbies run missions but don't see their rank upping, because it wasn't about rank but account xp. It's the only stuff that is not clear, to me at least. Once they can get infos about that, I believe stuff becomes shiner. And quickly they'll understand that to farm fate, they have to deal with normal missions, that give account XP, to, yeah, try to be on a 1:1 ratio. 

6 years 289 days ago

Oh thats me :) Has been fun yesterday. Great vid!