Rant on Player customisation/Choice - Vid

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Rant on Player customisation/Choice - Vid
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323 days ago

Being an altoholic getting to end game is not so important for me. But knowing where the neocore's goals is the most thing as well as enjoying the ride not the end.

323 days ago

Hopefully they make the story line quests have less of a PL jump. 1005-1105, then no more story quests. Not eing able to do anything but grind 100 fate in >34 quests for 60 account points is bad and only pushes boosting groups(carries to me). A jump of 5-10 pl points in story mode instances should be max below cap.

This comment was edited 323 days ago by Christs
324 days ago
Posted by Christs 325 days ago

I think its fairly clear that there will be very little 'end game' at all. The game will be mostly about the trip to it. Throughout the leveling process there seems to be enough 'choice' and will change a lot in the process. I really don't think we should be worrying about level cap customization or 'OP' builds. For every change/idea there will ups and downs for everyone, its more important that we change with the development idea's not change them.

Does look that way. Hopefully the difficulty cap will raise above what's playable in a sector. Would he a shame if the power rating always stops = with your character. I'd love the idea of optimising my relics and seeing how high me and my friends and push in + power rating difficulty.

324 days ago
Deportivo

OK well my mistake. Looked tike there was some overlap of pointss between what we were saying. Perhaps there wasn't. 


Not sure why you insist on getting so emotive every time I discuss something with you. If you have some personal beef with me then sorry I'm not going to change for the sake of appeasing your personals grudge. Especially when it stems from you misreading something from a thread weeks ago.


I wrote some very neutral points and observations, asking questions and exchanging points, not telling you what to think. For someone who accuses people of being on a high horse I could quite easily dig up a few posts of you telling people they are wrong using some fairly abbraisive language.


If you disagree, explain why. Don't go on some angry rant. All I did was expand on a couple of my previous points to make a clearer argument. 

This comment was edited 324 days ago by Airsick Hydra
325 days ago

I think its fairly clear that there will be very little 'end game' at all. The game will be mostly about the trip to it. Throughout the leveling process there seems to be enough 'choice' and will change a lot in the process. I really don't think we should be worrying about level cap customization or 'OP' builds. For every change/idea there will ups and downs for everyone, its more important that we change with the development idea's not change them.

325 days ago
Airsick Hydra

No. We are not agreeing.


 Name of your post is "Rant on Player customisation/Choice - Vid ".


I've replied twice that i disagree with your conclusions, using arguments for the future of the game, and experience for the present. Your personal opinion is stated in your post, and you're entitled to have one, of course.


What you are NOT entitled is to proclaim that we're in agreement, that I - to be sarcastic - 'had an epiphany on the forums' and understood that you were right all along. That's NOT how it happened and that's not what I'm thinking. Anyone who actually READ the posts can see that.


Another thing is singling me out - 'the way I play' - supposedly something perverse and unnatural, while your standpoint is one of The Emperor himself, the defender of the people? Your opinion worths exactly as mine. Again, I'm not offended but I have seen already the way you 'discuss'.

326 days ago
Posted by Airsick Hydra 334 days ago

Some good points - Yes there's some choice regarding how effective you are at what you do. But there isn't any choice in determining what you are - Past equipping a weapon. At least in the leveling process.


For me at least it's relevant as it's an ARPG game and it'll be within player's expectations that their character feels like it's evolving over time slowly. Right now I think that's going to be a scratch that isn't itched. Now it might not be a big problem, but I think for some it's enough to loose interest in the game. 


Good point on morality - If there's enough mechanics in the game so that you feel like you are doing something while playing - then it's going to help a hell of a lot. For me at least an integral feature of an arpg is still that your character, however good or quirky - represents the choices you have made. Not just the weapon you have picked up. 

Honestly, I feel like my character is evolving over time as far as efficiency and killing/tanking power goes - although that felt a lot more progressive when you got more than a single skill point a week (at least in my playtimes). They've already mentioned that that's going to change though, so I'm mostly reserving judgement on that till after that change.


I'm going to be honest here, I'm not the most wide berth of ARPG players - specifically the top-down style ones, such as this. I've done some Baldur's Gate back on consoles, some Neverwinter Nights and some real brief PoE at one point. I'm not the most targeted of experienced audience members in that regard, but to me, the game doesn't feel too much different from those (Alpha/EA nitpicks aside). You get gear to make you stronger to make the fights easier, only to go to a new place that in turn repeats the process. At it's core, that's probably why this general type of game never really draws me in unless I've got friends with which to play it - to turn it more into that social party atmosphere. The other games have more "skills" as we typically know them - rewarding different moves like magic missile or whatnot - but most also didn't factor in the weapon so much (my swing with a hammer, sword, or axe would have been the same, with only the statistics of the weapons making a difference). Although I'm all for the ability for each weapon to have more skills associated with it (being able to replace the heavy-handed AoE swing with a less damaging but faster swing version or whatever example we can come up with) to add to the customization of the character, the choice is still there as I go up the level chain as to whether I want to be the heavy and slow tanker, or the zippy guy with damage, so on and so forth. I haven't maxed out my skill points at this point, so I can't really same much about the end, but I'd think especially playing with friends would open up all manners of possibilities in combinations - the person geared more towards armored targets, the crowd clearing specialist, the single-target spiker.


What I really feel like is missing from customization is the actual word itself on the character - something as simple as allowing the player to dye their gear a different color could go a long way there, and indeed it seems as though eventually something like that might come along down the line (and indeed the waiting is the main agitating part of EA to me). The armors do sometimes have some different designs - like one or two won't have a helmet for my crusader, or this Assault suit has engravings (although honestly the only one I've felt had distinguished changes is the Sentinel, who swaps between mostly robed to unrobed with banners, to my favorite so far with a tube come across that looks very reminiscent of a skeleton's rib cage), but part of the joy of character customization isn't just the abilities but the looks. I guess really most of the complaints seem like they could probably be fixed down the road, after the game is a solid completed unit as opposed to a sampling of systems

327 days ago

Hm is there an arpg that is customiceable enough? Even PoE is lame no matter the huge skillmap. You'll always finde the minmaxed way to go arround in the tree and always skill the same stuff because it's more cost efficent then anything else. In PoE you make a skilltree according to the gems you use and in WH40KIM you'll make a skilltree according to the weapons you use. It's the same thing theme wise.

The big nodes in the PoE Skillmap change some stuff in the game, thats right and the perks they have in WH40KIM will not give you the same potential but they'll change some gameplay behaviours as well. If i look at this without any emotion or bias for one of the games they are the same after all function wise. PoE is far bigger in that waybut your build demandes that you take certain nodes. In WH40KIM you'll use certain trees to achive the same thing, like the heat tree for heat weapons and stuff like this.

The only thin WH4=KIM need in my eyes is a far more fluid combat feeling and  a better AI that not simply try to zerk you down, but uses cover and dont chase you like lemmings to get killed while they are lined themselfs up. 

After all the game is in alpha state and it's one of the better alphas i played in he last 12 years so im not that unhappy with the game in it's current state but there is so much unused potential that it hurts me sometimes ^^.

328 days ago
Deportivo

Sounds like we agree that the game has to provide variety of content as a primary means to keep players interested. Especially for long enough to reach the point that play style and mechanical features start to become varied.

The portion of the game we are playing though doesn't change the "potential issue" that the mechanical discovery / play-style variation within the early game is not one of its selling points. We can't measure Martyr's weapon or skill system other popular titles and say it provides equal customisation through the levelling experience. That's all I was pointing out.

Yes, it's true they want to provide a more open experience via the size of the universe, the amount of enemies, the quantity of mission types etc. But at least for me that's a separate phenomena. Sure it's great and I look forward to it all! But I don't personally see that as compensation for character development.

That being said though - Perhaps with retinue, morality and other systems in place it'll help bring martyr to comparable levels. 

328 days ago
+1
Airsick Hydra

Currently, we are playing something like 10% of the game, and that being endgame, even.


With full release, there will be Story - giving a yet-unknown number of Inquisitor levels which will,  presumably, give both skill levels and unlock the gear. 


Playing 10 levels of Story should be interesting as such + there will be unlocking new gear. Leveling will be noticeable from the customization point too - putting 10 levels in Movement makes quite a difference, both from speed and cooldown branch, for example.


AFTER that, player will found himself in huge open Universe, with hundreds of planets, different missions, new races and specific events/content, not it the 6-system subsector. Different builds may prove better than others for a certain race or mission types - and in that variety. Skill levelling becomes slow for a high-level character, but it won't be the case for final game with 10s of PL more, Godlikes and so on...


Anyhow, current sample of the sector can be called bit boring, but it's here mainly for testing various aspects of the game, basic balancing and bugfixes. In my opinion, it's way too early to judge the design when the key points of the final game (say catalyzers, say retinue, say grand inquisitions, say Cabal improvements, say more MP, say Psyker, say visual customization) are missing. All of that doesn't stop many people to spend hundreds of hours playing and having fun. 

329 days ago
Whtwolf74

I think point C covers it fairly often. 


The same players that complain about having to do the same thing again and again also complain that their character doesn't change throughout that process. Obviously Martyr is aiming to offer a lot more diversity by end release but I do think it's very fair that a lot of ARPG players that enjoy theory craft - will find the current system at least on first glance to be lacking compared to some of their favourite titles. 


Personally I don't. I'm fairly happy with the system as a whole. But. I can't argue with the fact that by having all weapons and modifiers as pre-attached to weapons - it does detract from the customisation compared to what many games deliver. The sense of creation from putting skill points into critical hit just doesn't really compare to the mechanical discovery of realising you can create a thorn damage based pet build in diablo for eg :D

329 days ago
+1

I dunno Hydra, the complaints may be different on the EU Steam then the American Steam. On the American Servers there are 544 reviews. Of those reviews 94, or 1/5, are negative.  Of the negative reviews it seems the majority are either comparing it to Diablo 3 or PoE. They either are:


A) not fast enough leveling (probably your Diablo fans)

B) not enough customization in gear at low levels (probably your PoE fans)

C) too clunky and repetitive in the current state (same maps , same enemies, same missions, so forth)

D) all on average of about 5 hours (some as low as 20 min and some as high as 13 hours, but not that much time in game)


Almost none of them have reached "end game" area of leveling or account leveling.Most of those were to be expected when it went into Early Access on Steam as people will downvote a game just because.  Perhaps with the revamp to speed up the account leveling there would be fewer. Two people admit they only downvoted because there isn't a neutral setting in the voting while the game is in Alpha. 

329 days ago
Deportivo

While you might feel it's enough for you personally - Do you not agree that the level of customisation is short of what some players might be expecting based on other games of the genre? - especially during the levelling experience.

At least that seems to be the response of quite a few negative reviews and feedback posts (more steam-E/A based). Where comments such as "I've gained 10 levels and nothing has changed" actually seem pretty hard to dispute. Changing your % efficiency via skills or swapping weapon is perhaps enough for some, but not comparable to what some games are offering.

Do agree with you that by late game - the total viable builds will be sufficient for many. I've lost count of the amount of different sniper builds I can create. But again - the levelling experience is what was being criticised. Well that and the level of choice.

This comment was edited 329 days ago by Airsick Hydra
329 days ago

I generally disagree that current system doesn't allow enough customization.


That is, under the presumption that Perks and Skills will be replaceable on a players whim, say by right-click for skill. It's OK during the testing phase, but I think that:

- Attributes (inherited from other characters, THEN freely distributed)

- Account-based skills (inherited from other characters, THEN freely distributed)


Are more than enough to make compelling reason and relatively painless creating the a new character, WHEN/IF Godlike or something like that not very useful for current build. Especially if it happens constantly, whenever an item of significantly more value is found.


Example: Melee Crusader finds Godlike ranged weapon, so he deletes whole HP skilltree, whole AoE skilltree and there - ranged Crusader with DoT and/or Single Target. Rinse and repeat, 3 days later. It's very cheesy, and leaves exactly the situation where just a few builds (I'd assume it was meant 'per class', not 'totally').


Finding a Godlike with special affixes is WORTHY building a new character if, by unlucky chance, current one can't use it (well), similar as making a new class character if the item found by mentioned Crusader is Psyker one (whatever they would look like).


Otherwise, one character / class with 7-8 full skilltrees, changed as they are now, is more than enough for player - and I would, personally, want to have more - tanking and ranged Crusader, DPS and support Psyker ets., and to be able to change them easily, depending on the role (or power of) the Party; or one for SP. 

IF those changes require all those clicking each time, it's a chore (well, I could make them different anyway). Both cases - I need to do boring stuff - either to respect often, or level (if it's not needed). If that's the choice, my preference is having different characters. Also, I think this is better for the game - getting free skillpoints and attributes is helpful enough.


Current affix system provides decent customizing abilities even now - reducing cooldowns skill >1 sec cooldown and increasing its power (by skills and special affixes) can make the same weapon (and skills attached) to be used rather differently, changing its nature to something other. Example:

Focus reg (basic) = 0.5/sec initially. Focus-based skills are used seldom, and not without a good reason.

Focus reg (+3 utility skills) = 1.5/sec. Focus-based skills are used often, build starts to look differently, just because of this.

Focus reg (+Purity bonus) = 2.5/sec. With cooldown/focus usage reduction on a few items, focus-based skills are used whenever player wants, whole build can depend on those.


This is an example of skills requiring 3 skill points, few items (note those can have other useful affixes) and dominant investment in attribute. Gradually, depending on players choices (main being unchangeable attributes), skill progresses greatly.


Second - why having a free respect? Isn't a skilltree something that character trains considerably long and achieve the mastery (alpha) after vigorous training? Can it be REMOVED? Can all those years of training be just ignored and said 'no, it was Movement all along, not at all Single Target'? Doesn't sound logical...

Logic apart, mentioned PoE players have to pay dearly for all those tomes. I'm not saying that ANY respect shouldn't be possible - but there should be a price (and PoE is a good example) OR a limit, such in TL2, where only last 3 skills can be respec-ed, and even they are paid for.


My thoughts, at least. Inquisitor should be able to drop sword and take flamer, but his knowledge of the swords remains. And then he uses flamer just with skills he already knows - he may start to invest into new weapon. He *could* have a knowledge of the Heat-skilltree already (if that is the name), but that's something player decided before, not just when flamer dropped. 


Endgame characters would be likely to have more skilltrees and more versatility (this sounds very logical) - if 'bare minimum' and respec are allowed freely, the motivation to level further lessens...

This comment was edited 329 days ago by Deportivo
334 days ago
Airsick Hydra

Also the retinue system. That should play a role as well I would think.

334 days ago

Some good points - Yes there's some choice regarding how effective you are at what you do. But there isn't any choice in determining what you are - Past equipping a weapon. At least in the leveling process.


For me at least it's relevant as it's an ARPG game and it'll be within player's expectations that their character feels like it's evolving over time slowly. Right now I think that's going to be a scratch that isn't itched. Now it might not be a big problem, but I think for some it's enough to loose interest in the game. 


Good point on morality - If there's enough mechanics in the game so that you feel like you are doing something while playing - then it's going to help a hell of a lot. For me at least an integral feature of an arpg is still that your character, however good or quirky - represents the choices you have made. Not just the weapon you have picked up. 

335 days ago

I really don't have any issue with the current system. I'm not a ARPG player normally( I'm here for the 40K experience), so I guess that's why it doesn't bother me the way it does you Hydra. With that said, won't the upcoming Inquisitorial Morality system provide the additional customization you're looking for ?

335 days ago

In Path you can i have way more of the big perks of the skill tree at the same time , martyr only gives you three at a time.

In Path you can start as a warrior and become something very different from the startingclass what i found great. (possible choises in thermes of your personal journey).

At the moment the inquisitor feels like an atomaton , or some kind of inquisitorial custodes and not an eisenhorn.

like the vid ^^

335 days ago
+1

As always, love the videos.


 I do think there is a choice in the skills that can tweak the weapons, though perhaps not enough to your liking.  Granted it takes time to unlock certain skill branches and to gain the skill points enough to make a difference. An example of this is the Heat Skill Tree. If you spend enough points in the heat skill tree there is a skill that any weapon that does heat damage applies a burn. Under the DOT skill branch there is one that poison does extra damage to armor and changes it to corrosion damage. 


Now granted we are still in Alpha and not all are working as intended (for instance Plasma, Laser, and Melta are not registering as Heat damage for the Heroic achievement as intended, granted an obvious bug) but the ability is there. 


Also the weapons kinda work as the gem system in a way once everything is in place. Some have armor breaking. Some have fleshbane. Some have a DoT such as poison or fire. Some have a stun. Each weapon has its own unique characteristics even though they may act similarly to other weapons. You still have the choice of what type of damage you want to do and there are good combos in the weapons switching. 


Just my two cents.