Loot boxes, the Imperial guard, and Bolters

24

So... for the most part i am actually really enjoying my time with this game especially with my friend, who actually got me to buy it on early access. This game is in Alpha how some games launch, which is scary but since it's early days, some glaring problems need to be addressed, and maybe some ideas looked at which i will now go over.


1) Lets face it. Your progression system is borderline, if not flat out loot box based, and it needs to disappear ASAP. This game looks like it can VERY easily and quickly start putting limits on progression, and monetize the Fate system, and that kind of game needs to be left in 2017 and never looked at again. Instead, have planets give rewards like any regular quest in any regular ARPG, scaling with your item level, ie. The higher the item level for x mission, the better drops and loot you will receive from IN GAME accomplishments. I hate the loot boxes at the end of each mission. It scares me to think that this is now a "valid" form of progressing in game. Fate also needs to be a bit less of a MASSIVE GRIND which it currently is. I don't want to hate this game, but i will not support loot boxes, where-ever they may show their ugly faces.


2) The Imperial Guard need a massive nerf. Seriously, they are doing more damage than Space Marines... how does that even work? If the guard were this powerful, they would never have lost Cadia! 2 Ogryn and 4 Guardsmen with flashlights melt 8k HP in a few seconds AND I'M PLAYING A CRUSADER. Power armor should be able to EASILY handle lasguns, it bugs me as a Warhammer 40k fan, that guardsmen are this powerful, when honestly, their actual job is to die in the millions, buying enough time for the Astartes to come take all the credit. In no way shape or form should a FLASHLIGHT (lasgun) even scuff power armor.  This needs to change.


3) Bolters. They need a buff. Along with that, here is an idea i haven't seen in any Warhammer 40k game: choose what type of bolter rounds you can equip (Kraken, Helfrost, Hellfire, etc...) for various status effects, effectiveness against certain enemies, elemental damage, and even combinations during multiplayer, ie. one person is running Helfrost bolts that slow/freeze enemies, and another is using Kraken rounds. If a Kraken round hits a frozen enemy, they explode dealing AOE damage. That's just a start. As a balance, make the type of round can only be selected before a mission, and not during.


4) Chainswords need an attack speed buff. Big Time.


5) Your loot system needs work. I feel like i'm grinding for absolutely nothing at all. The only time I make any progress is when me and a buddy run tarrot missions, and it really shouldn't be that way. Item levels feel like they're arbitrary. A level 18 thunder hammer does less damage than a level 10 greatsword? WTF? It's completely out of whack! As i stated earlier, give loot drops based on difficulty and gear score, and give out rewards per mission accomplished, that are visible when we select the mission we want to do, and above all... Make the items worth it. That we can see and feel the difference in our strength. As an example for missions... When i want to do a purge mission, i can see that i will get a piece of armor, and a power sword, for example. There are more than enough planets to have this kind of system. Just have it scale off our current gear score and boom. There is no need for that rank system which will dictate our drops. It's frustrating and downright annoying.


6) Speaking of loot... yeah there is already a decent amount, however it would still work much better if you were to add individual armor pieces, such as shoulders, chest, helmet, legs, feet, hands, arms, etc. It would open up new play styles and the option for set gear, which is always awesome, and maybe even Astartes pattern power armor so we can play while looking like our favorite chapter. If not that, then at least let us transmogrify our items so we can get a desired appearance. We all wanna look badass, and it's hard when all the armors look almost exactly the same.


7) FOR THE LOVE OF THE EMPEROR AND ALL IN THE IMPERIUM, GET RID OF YOU THRICE CURSED AND CHAOS TAINTED F**KING LOOT BOXES.


TL;DR. Remove loot boxes, buff Fate gain, nerf guardsmen, buff bolters add bolter rounds, buff chainswords, fix the mess of a loot system, diversify equipment, AND REMOVE THE DAMNED LOOT BOXES.


I honestly hope someone takes the time to read this, and seriously consider the points I've made, as I feel this game has an enormous amount of potential, Warhammer 40k games need a win, and I honestly feel like this is it. You've done so much right here, but the things i've listed here mar an otherwise fantastic experience, and for all the good, these things undo almost all of it. There are other minor gripes such as sound and bugs here and there but as this is still early days and in Alpha, it doesn't bother me too much. Hope this helps.

This post was edited 273 days ago by Frankenllama
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Loot boxes, the Imperial guard, and Bolters
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271 days ago
Airsick Hydra

If I open the chest and frogger away or have enough movement speed I pick up nothing. Same thing if i kill a bigger boss that drops loot. if the boss is the last thing and i hop away or run away i mostly never pickup the droped stuff.


We have nothing with the implemented crafting and we don't know what we might get in the future. At the moment there are a lot of promises from the developers but right now I can't believe much of what they say.  The longer they keep silent the more frustrating it gets. If there is another client they could at least make a stream about it and show us what we get in the future and Im pretty sure the players would see stuff in the stream that isn't as good as it could be or overcomplicated or simply buged.


I think it's to early to say "Abandon all hope!" but atm it's getting more frustrating.

This comment was edited 271 days ago by Irrelewahnt
271 days ago
Posted by Frankenllama 271 days ago
I honestly never thought about it that way... I keep having to remind myself that this is still alpha xD. There is a surprising amount of polish for what it is.... But thanks for that point of view, it puts things into perspective. I also checked out your YouTube channel and that also gave me a bit more sense of direction, so thanks for that and keep up the great work :) 


As a matter of interest, what do you think about adding different types of bolter rounds to the game? 

No sweat man - not saying that it's right or wrong but there are some advantages to the current system. 


The main difference is the mission based system I think. Most games let you play through a campaign in a really fluid way, after the early chapter you can return to base whenever you want. The main reason to return to base is often when you get some great items. But in this we return to base literally every 15 minutes anyway :D To me making gear choices before a "mission" which is a closed instance is quite comfortable, but obviously some will feel like they miss out on their in-mission rewards.

For bolter rounds - I think personally they are already used to a degree on the 4th ability and 2nd ability as a means to display different damage types. But I do think many weapons could have been done better, or at least made more interesting.
My personal preference is to have some class orientated skills rather than more weapon modifications. The upcoming weapon system in deathwing for eg looks nice on paper by making guns shoot faster, have more ammo, less spread etc etc. It's exactly what we have already with the (incomplete) crafting. But it's certainly possibly to use some more of these rounds within the game to create more interesting ability sets.

This comment was edited 271 days ago by Airsick Hydra
271 days ago
Posted by Irrelewahnt 272 days ago
Uh i forgott about something untill i read your post. Think about the chests you're opening during missions. Man the are a mess! Open it... wait for it........ waaaaaait for it...........waaaaaaaiiiiiit for it... man give me that supplies already ffs.... Sometimes you stand there for 5 seconds until the game manages to put the stuff on the floor into your inventory. This is such a hugue waste of time -.-.
You know they are picked up on a timer? If you open them and walk away you still get them. At least that's my experience :D
271 days ago
Irrelewahnt
The loot picks up automatically. You don't have to run over it :) hopefully that helps speed things up for you buddy.
271 days ago
Airsick Hydra
I honestly never thought about it that way... I keep having to remind myself that this is still alpha xD. There is a surprising amount of polish for what it is.... But thanks for that point of view, it puts things into perspective. I also checked out your YouTube channel and that also gave me a bit more sense of direction, so thanks for that and keep up the great work :) 


As a matter of interest, what do you think about adding different types of bolter rounds to the game? 

272 days ago
Airsick Hydra
Uh i forgott about something untill i read your post. Think about the chests you're opening during missions. Man the are a mess! Open it... wait for it........ waaaaaait for it...........waaaaaaaiiiiiit for it... man give me that supplies already ffs.... Sometimes you stand there for 5 seconds until the game manages to put the stuff on the floor into your inventory. This is such a hugue waste of time -.-.
272 days ago
+1
Frankenllama

Because this is a mission based game. The most time you will ever take on average is about 10-15 minutes before you are back at base. Just given their design choices having the loot at the end honestly has many advantages and is far more easily justified than an in game loot system.

Here's a few off the top of my head.

- Encourages players to play to end of missions. Keeps the focus on the completion of the objective rather than chasing of goodies. Which means when doing group orientated play there's far less people dropping in and out when they do / don't get what they want. Something many other ARPG's are plagued by. Rewards are given for a successful mission rather than killing something big. Which in my mind at least suits the 40k universe a lot more than killing a space marine then standing there for 10 minutes comparing their heavy bolter to yours. 

- Prevents allied players from standing still for 5 minutes every time they pick something up during combat (biggest one for me) it's a total immersion killer and leads to loads of frustration during group play. Currently everyone is focused on the combat at all times and everyone then looks at their gear at the same time, syncing activities for a smoother experience.

- If you did see a new item during a mission - your skills wouldn't necessarily suit it at all - in fact most of the time you can guarantee it wouldn't - often when changing item you need to compeltely redo your passive system and perks to suit the new weapon. That's not ever going to be a good idea mid mission.

- Lastly it encourages you to think about builds before entering a mission, looking into what can be done to +/- your abilities and then doing what's needed to max it out. The time it would take to optimise a build of a full character with 50 points during a mission to addapt to a new weapon would be 10+ minutes probably. Making builds is best done within the ship. 


Just to name a few :) honestly in my view it's the only way to do a mission based game. What you gotta remember is that this isn't a traditional ARPG with a continual flow of content and convenient town portals at your convenience. Which to be honest you either like or dislike! it has its advantages and disadvantges. 

This comment was edited 272 days ago by Airsick Hydra
272 days ago
Posted by Irrelewahnt 272 days ago
Yeah they are unnesassary and everthing could be handeledthrough drops, but on the other side i hade lot's of missions without loot and was happy to see some stuff in the chest.
i'll secind that... but then loot drops are a problem.... not like a super huge unstoppable problem.... just a small annoying one. i mean its a real issue when i have a rank 10 greatsword doing as much damage as a rank 18 thunder hammer.
272 days ago
+1
Frankenllama
Yeah they are unnesassary and everthing could be handeledthrough drops, but on the other side i hade lot's of missions without loot and was happy to see some stuff in the chest.
272 days ago
Irrelewahnt
Man, loot boxes murdered my family, and wore their faces for years... DON'T TALK TO ME LIKE YOU KNOW. YOU DON'T KNOW MY LIFE!!! *Tears rolling down my cheeks, suddenly stopped by the waving of your hand* these are not EA loot boxes....


In all seriousness i just don't see the point in them... They literally don't need to be there and while it's wonderful the devs came out and said there will be no microtransactions in the game, it doesn't stop me from this sick feeling i get in my stomach whenever they're implemented into a game i love.... It's never a good thing.

272 days ago
Frankenllama
I never saw the chest at the end of the level or at level up as a "lootbox". If you are haunted that much by lootboxes... man get help ;). This is just some loot because you did something. Martyr don't drop much loot in mission because you can't swap it anyway, so giving some stuff after a mission is okay for me, it's just random loot anyway.


The devs said that there will no microtransactions that will give you ingame benefits so everything it's okay. *moves his hand* Those aren't EA's Lootboxes.

272 days ago
Airsick Hydra
Yes, that thing you get at the end of missions and when you rank up... Loot you collected during the mission is displayed above that.


I have not played Vermintide, so i can't speak for that system. However, why would a game, especially an ARPG that focuses heavily on the loot, not want you to access gear during a mission? That's seriously worrying. In the chat window system we could see what items we'd be receiving as a reward. Here its all up to rnjesus to decide if you are to be blessed with good items at the end of the mission... What i suggested was in the planet view when you select missions, put like 1 or 2 guaranteed items so we can choose to do the mission or maybe pass and try something else. Even if they put a system in place where certain types of missions would yeild a higher chance for x item would help. For example, higher chance for armour on purge missions and weapons for assassinate missions. Even that would be better


I see what they are trying to do and don't get me wrong, i love this game so far, it's just these things are ruining it enough for me to make a massive forum post about it, which i normally never do. :) 


So to sum up... I would feel a lot better knowing what's in the loot box at the end of the mission, or even the CHANCE of something in particular is better, rather than praying to rnjesus that i get decent drops. 


Also maybe I'm an idiot and i don't know how to work this loot system to my advantage.

272 days ago
Just curious on your meaning but are you referring to the end of mission screen as the loot box system? 


Currently it's a way of displaying what you picked up during the mission, or the second screen can be quest rewards or from levelling up. This way of presenting is seen when games don't want you to access gear during a mission. It's just a means to display what new gear you got.

If you haven't played it - think of Vermintide. After a mission you roll some dice and you are given a reward based on the result. It's to make players look forward to the mission completion to see what loot they got. Not a loot crate system, it's just loot thats presented to you from within a container vs the traditional method of reward which is loot provided from within a chat window. The same goes for the containers you get after hitting a reputation point. It happens because there isn't an NPC who you talk to regarding reputation rewards, so the chatbox tradition is out the window and instead its more like the mailbox reward system. 

272 days ago
Irrelewahnt
Thanks for your thoughts! I just felt the whole loot box thing as unnecessary, and they should just up the quality of loot drops on higher difficulties, so that it feels rewarding to actually suffer through that.


The guard... I cry more when i face 2 shotgun Ogryn than when i face a chaos dreadnaught... There is something majorly wrong there. Space Marines need a huge buff as well. No lies.


Yes. I hope customization makes an appearance. It will be very cool, especially to equip ammo for bolters and actually be a little bit more tactical in our loadouts.


I agree. 1 handed needs buff... However running a bolt pistol and power axe is amazing.


Rnjesus hates me a lot. I stand by my point of even keeping the loot boxes, and cursed as they may be and i will never fully accept them... But if they just improve the quality of drops for higher levels, I'm happy.


Having crafting tiers might be cool as well. So we can eventually craft our own relics :D


I see your point on the loot boxes, but they just didn't need to be there. At all. Those things needed to die with Battlefront 2, and stay in 2017 where they belong. Just my feelings on them, i know most people don't mind them

272 days ago
1. The progression system is okay. It has some benefits when you play with smaller players rank wise. It's not glorious at all but it does the job.


2. No. Rebells are the only faction that is ok. Every other faction needs a buff or the game get's borderline braindead.


3. I hope for a balancing pass and weapon customisation as well. I hate it thet bolters are garbadge outside of dual wield bolt pistols. The bolter is one of the most iconic weapons in 40k... at least for me ^^.


4. All one handed melee weapons suck compared to twohanded weapons. I think this is a balancing thing.


5. Well the itemisation ingame make me go nuts sometimes. Droped a Signum in early levels with heat dmg, all damage and heat damage. Overs 22% on my build but i can't use it because some mechanic says its weaker then a item i find ranks later that has crap stats. This is the only part that makes the item system painfull. Weapons are delivered in dmg ranges and you can roll the stuff like you want it to.


6. Maybe the'll implement stuff via crafting. We'll have to see about that.


7. Just imagine that lootboxes are spoils of war. After we did our thing with purging all that runs arround we take the loot container someone forgott there in the corner and open it to get yummy extra pieces. I see those as extra rng loot. It realy wont change anything if those items drop in the level or not.


That's just my view on you case :).

272 days ago
PurpleHaze
Kind of exactly the same as me then haha. I think an option to select bolter rounds might give the gameplay some extra depth, as different rounds could have different effects. 


But yeah I'm pretty much running your exact build when facing the guard. Preffer the heavy bolter just for that fire rate and cheese the boss fights so hard. Perma stun with the explosive rounds once i destroy their suppression bar.

272 days ago

I'm a huge fan of the bolter type weapons in this game for sure. And im going to agree with the Shotgun carriers aswell, though their the main reason i carry the void generator.


Since patch I've been using the Bolter over the Heavy, mostly for the aim shot. One of my builds pre-patch was a Heavy Bolter Jump Crusader that was all Boosters to Defence and Hitpoints. 

Now I'm fully Melee Build with speed boosters and i use the Bolter as a Solve the problem when it comes to range, or servo skulls. 


I'm going to start running my Steam Broadcasting when im playing so anyone can watch. 

272 days ago
Airsick Hydra
Thank you for clearing that up, it's been a rather large worry of mine that this game can very quickly shift to the microtransaction route faster than you can call "heresy" since all the systems are already more or less there. I loved the Helsing franchise and the devs are good guys, so it's a little alarming to see these systems being put in. I'd rather err on the side of caution, given recent events in the gaming industry. Rather say something about it than just let it slide you know? 


Thanks for clearing it up though, I've only had the game for a short amount of time and must have missed their news statements around the loot boxes. :)

272 days ago
WitchZer0

I know i know... Gear score is how you progress, but the whole loot box thing at the end of every mission is arbitrary and i feel, personally, that they don't need that kind of system. Breaking your balls for "slightly" better items is just insane. Maybe I'm too oldschool... Thinking that higher difficulty would = quite a decent bit better rewards. And while i see what they're doing with ranks and levels, it just feels a bit needlessly conplicated, and fate is so hard to grind, tarrot missions being your only "viable" source of better items is.... Eh. I don't want to be that guy that says "your ideas were bad, and you should feel bad" but at least for me they were bad, and i suggested an alternative, which you (at least in some way) seem to agree with. I'm not saying give VASTLY better items for red missions, but... Definitely better items, more of the time would make it feel like it wasn't just wasted effort.


Thanks for your comment, i appreciate your input, and i ask what are your thoughts on the other ideas i put forward in my post? :)

272 days ago
PurpleHaze
The thing you get at the end is a box... With loot in it.... Based on RNG.... It's the literal definition of a loot box. And while it makes me feel better that they have come out and said that they will never charge for it, i personally feel that it's not necessary, and there are better ways of doing things. That's just my view


I also run a melee focused crusader, and found that a heavy bolter works nicely against them. I still think that they do way too much damage and are way too strong for wht they are... Guardsmen. I love the difficulty and the challenge of this game and i don't want that to disappear, there are other enemies to face that could take the place of guardsmen is all I'm saying. Thanks your reply though, would love to hear your thoughts on bolter rounds and actual suggestions i made, not just the problems with my initial statement. :)

273 days ago
+3

Just if you had missed their previous statements on the subject as it was several months ago.


There's absolutely no way, ever ever ever that there will be fate being sold. There will be no pay 2 win ever. Their words. 

The progression system as I see it is designed to use a tiered system which allows cross party play. The use of an experience which acts like a currency provides a means of boosting ones progress should there be a lack of story content or should the story become too difficult and you want to increase your progress to the point that mission becomes easier. It also provides gear upgrades on-demand for the price of completing a delectable mission - but at a cost of not being repeatable, allowing a player some choice.

While one (and some have) argue that it's easy to start charging money for this. They have adamantly said this will never happen. Multiple times and in multiple platforms and very publicly. While you don't have to believe them on this, it's what has been repeatedly stated. 

This comment was edited 273 days ago by Airsick Hydra
273 days ago
+2

Progression.

Loot boxes are not how you Progress.  I purchase schematics and craft my items so that I get the stats I want.   I farm XP a Glory to rank up.  Craft new gear every few levels.  The Tarot missions rewards are generally better, especially if you chose Eternal *whatever*, the one where you must not die.  Random is Random and I don't care.  It's all broken down or sold like every other ARPG ever.  Good loot does drop from the Boss level creatures.  I get multiple items, purples and greens,  often from them. 


I see your concern about selling Boxes or Fate for real money, so just say that.   Suggesting to scrap months of work because you hate caches is kinda of a non-starter.


Imperial Guard.

Ogryn Shotguns and Servitor Rocket launchers need to calm down.  Seriously.   Or give a longer indicator for that mega shotgun blast that strips 3/4 of my Suppression bar.


Loot.

The Uther Tarot system lets you chose the reward types.  If you want a sword then do x mission type.  I see where your going with this.  You know how it says you will get XP, Glory, Fate, Money on the mission description.  Maybe add field on the mission label that guarantees X reward item, even have an icon of it to tool tip.  It could be Armor, Weapon, whatever RNG based on your class or a fixed item type for endgame.


Loot is based on your level.   Gear Score is based on Items that you got at your level.   I like the idea of red missions giver higher quality rewards but they are still going to be at your current level.  Gearscore based rewards would not be reflective of your level but your currently equipped gear, which could be old.  Thus making Gearscore based rewards weaker than level based rewards.

273 days ago
+2
The reward box at the end isnt a loot box. They've already stated that fate wont be sold for real money. No pay to win here folks. 


Guard. Their one of the enemies you need to plan for. Target certain dudesmen first to reduce their over-all punch. Wait for moments where you can draw some of their clustered mobbs out alittle at a time. 

I used to feel the same way, but they just require slightly different tactics to combat well. Also Personal Void Shield Generator is massively effective when going agaisnt them. As it buffers your Hp and refills your suppression bar too. 


Im currently running a 2handed Melee build, and loving it. 

So dont jump the gun to fast here, hate for them to cake-walk everything and we end up with a easy-mode game. Should be this looming fear that you may not be able to clear a mission, otherwise the grind ensues.  

273 days ago
1) I agree with the loot boxes.. loot things.. whatever like I have been playing Diablo 3 forever.. drops are more reliable than some thing that is just like well here is luck.. like difficulty = good stuff which is pretty much how it's working here except you get like 5 items instead of like 40 per run..


2)the guard units themselves are a little insane not gonna lie even though it all scales... But honestly if they were like this in canon.. cadia wouldn't have fallen XD 


5) I donno haven't had it bad so can't complain really 


Agreed to loot boxes.. that ain't fun ever :P


Oh and techpriest doesn't have an appearance section just isn't in alpha :)