How to word things right, it's also these little things that matter @Neocore

13

So what do we have?
As tool of mission scaling I mean.

damage dealt -90%

damage received +400%

What does that tell us?
It means you are playing with a weaker and weaker character the higher you get in difficulty.

The concept of difficulty is not something I want to discuss here, the need is obvious,
but the wording / implementation is lacking, and without any necessity to it!


Instead of weakening the player, just buff the mobs, there's a reason why almost everyone else does it that way!

enemy hp increased by 900%

enemy damage increased by 400%

...reads exactly the same as the 2 other lines, but has some significant advantages, not only for the feeling of the game.

What do you prefer?
Playing with a weaker and weaker character? Or playing against tougher and tougher mobs?


There is also a technical advantage to it:
Right now, no one can really compare their damage with other players as "damage dealt" modifiers vary, and adding the percentage every time you talk with someone about it... no, just no.



Also you (neocore) might want to read this in case you missed it:
https://neocoregames.com/en/community/hub/why-warzone-endless-level-su-fails-and-how-to-fix-it


Those things are not related to (dev) effort or a choice that has a downside, it is just bad to make the wrong decisions and then stick with them for no reason, and it all adds to the still early beta status of this game, but unlike the more serious bugs and mistakes, these would be much easier to fix.

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13 comments
1 year 142 days ago
Posted by leverance 1 year 142 days ago
what are you talking about? what i said relates to everything not only yellow/ red. its in general. maybe read again what i wrote. what you want is basically whats in the game just a different calculation because pl system so i dont think its possible to change that because this would mean everything gets changed. pl is just dmg modifier. nothing more nothing less. 


whats the problem of doing high lvl warzones if your build gives enough % modifiers to negate the dmg malus which is basically the progression. you want hitpoints to be added saying you feel more powerful. this illusion might work for you. for me it doesnt. whats so hard to understand? you are the one that seem to not get the point. 


maybe even more simple for you : if it takes x clicks to kill a mob you add more hp it takes x+y clicks to kill a mob. where is the friggin fix to warzones? how does this make me "feel more powerful". but i leave you to it. i said plenty of what i wanted to say. 


just because i replied to two threads of you where i disagree does not mean anything~


 just saying. have a nice day maybe think about what i wrote i am not attacking here i am explaining.
Please refrain from posting in my threads, your trolling is obvious, even as bad as it is, and even when hidden in an arbitrary wall of text.


Damn, I wish there would be some actual players left in this game, and not only 12 years old hate mongers and the common random internet trolls...

1 year 142 days ago
-1
what are you talking about? what i said relates to everything not only yellow/ red. its in general. maybe read again what i wrote. what you want is basically whats in the game just a different calculation because pl system so i dont think its possible to change that because this would mean everything gets changed. pl is just dmg modifier. nothing more nothing less. 


whats the problem of doing high lvl warzones if your build gives enough % modifiers to negate the dmg malus which is basically the progression. you want hitpoints to be added saying you feel more powerful. this illusion might work for you. for me it doesnt. whats so hard to understand? you are the one that seem to not get the point. 


maybe even more simple for you : if it takes x clicks to kill a mob you add more hp it takes x+y clicks to kill a mob. where is the friggin fix to warzones? how does this make me "feel more powerful". but i leave you to it. i said plenty of what i wanted to say. 


just because i replied to two threads of you where i disagree does not mean anything~


 just saying. have a nice day maybe think about what i wrote i am not attacking here i am explaining.
1 year 142 days ago
-1
Posted by leverance 1 year 142 days ago

personally it would not make a difference to me. it will only change favourite builds that negate those effects best way possible. which in turn will make people ask for balance towards the other builds that cant.


imho it already feels weird that max dmg number can only be what health the mob has ( i think 4k is highest but could be wrong ). so even from early leveling you realize that no matter the power level/ weapon your damage will not change. eventually you will get to a build that gives + x% dmg and that is all you need to do. once you get that % bonus to your dmg you only need to figure out how to apply that dmg w/o dying. so this also saves time because you dont work with calculated numbers you just work with percentages. its not liek with other games where you can get some uber item rolls that make those combat calculations surpass a certain point so they feel godlike or that build enabling relic. so combat mechanic itself is very limited if i assume correct. apart from some stats it does not really matter too much what stats you carry so i get the impression that they have little impact. most impact seems to be the skill tree which means once you have all 56 points spent the majority of character build is done. forever. ( unless its higher level cap ). it feels like if you click an attack button on a mob it calculates how much % of mob hp you do as dmg. this makes itemization/ skills feel similar to each other you either can do 100% mob hp or you dont. so no matter the gear no matter the pl it will always feel the same. your idea of having more hp to those mobs describe that very same feeling i think. sadly i do not believe it is possible for dev to change such a fundamental game design choice ( i have no clue about how its developed tho so i might be wrong ).

hence i believe its more eminent to focus on making what we can do ingame worthwhile. like get a ton of skin modelers and dish those fancy w40k styled tidbits we can attach to our armors and weapons. also armor skins. lots and lots of them. make some uber prestige ones that will show people wow that dude grinded hard for that thing and makes you want it even though you know you dont have the time to grind it.


I feel you misread this a little, it is by all means not about builds or game difficulty or anything like that.


Also, most of your text only holds for green and yellow missions, maybe for the usual +250 PR red mission too,
but definitely not for higher lvl warzones, just saying.
Actually ...are you doing this on purpose?

1 year 142 days ago

personally it would not make a difference to me. it will only change favourite builds that negate those effects best way possible. which in turn will make people ask for balance towards the other builds that cant.


imho it already feels weird that max dmg number can only be what health the mob has ( i think 4k is highest but could be wrong ). so even from early leveling you realize that no matter the power level/ weapon your damage will not change. eventually you will get to a build that gives + x% dmg and that is all you need to do. once you get that % bonus to your dmg you only need to figure out how to apply that dmg w/o dying. so this also saves time because you dont work with calculated numbers you just work with percentages. its not liek with other games where you can get some uber item rolls that make those combat calculations surpass a certain point so they feel godlike or that build enabling relic. so combat mechanic itself is very limited if i assume correct. apart from some stats it does not really matter too much what stats you carry so i get the impression that they have little impact. most impact seems to be the skill tree which means once you have all 56 points spent the majority of character build is done. forever. ( unless its higher level cap ). it feels like if you click an attack button on a mob it calculates how much % of mob hp you do as dmg. this makes itemization/ skills feel similar to each other you either can do 100% mob hp or you dont. so no matter the gear no matter the pl it will always feel the same. your idea of having more hp to those mobs describe that very same feeling i think. sadly i do not believe it is possible for dev to change such a fundamental game design choice ( i have no clue about how its developed tho so i might be wrong ).

hence i believe its more eminent to focus on making what we can do ingame worthwhile. like get a ton of skin modelers and dish those fancy w40k styled tidbits we can attach to our armors and weapons. also armor skins. lots and lots of them. make some uber prestige ones that will show people wow that dude grinded hard for that thing and makes you want it even though you know you dont have the time to grind it.


This comment was edited 1 year 142 days ago by leverance
1 year 144 days ago
-1
Posted by Deportivo 1 year 145 days ago
I completely misjudged you, and for that I am sorry. Instead silly and ignorant person, you are have a keen sense of irony, and now I'm glad that I skipped the whole why-it's-like-that thing, which would spoil your intentionally false logic. But now, when I understand the humorous side of this thread, I shall continue to enjoy it, without mixing pyre, hard mathematic with fantastic and funny ideas. Thank you for making it!
Not knowing what to say?

Just throwing in a combination of unrelated words, roughly the shape of a few senteces?


Boy, you are not only so unimportant that you try, you are also so bad that you even fail at that,
and I'm writing this solely because I am surprised how bad you really are at it, this is outstanding in its own, sad way.

You are like the incarnation of nothingness, you should try to be a spy or so,
would be probably impossible for you to keep your mouth shut,
but if you did, you'd be completely invisible.

1 year 145 days ago
+1
I completely misjudged you, and for that I am sorry. Instead silly and ignorant person, you are have a keen sense of irony, and now I'm glad that I skipped the whole why-it's-like-that thing, which would spoil your intentionally false logic. But now, when I understand the humorous side of this thread, I shall continue to enjoy it, without mixing pyre, hard mathematic with fantastic and funny ideas. Thank you for making it!
1 year 145 days ago
If I understand correctly you are refering more in the psychological sense where my character is getting weaker as to where the game and enemies get tougher creating a bigger sense of challenge as they (the enemies) will be even harder to kill.


Good argument, hope the devs elaborate as to why they did it the way they did or consider changing it.

TLDR; I agree.

1 year 146 days ago
-1
Posted by ValosAthon 1 year 146 days ago
I don't get your point. Being debuffed or buffing ennemies, in the end it's all the same result.

It's just a matter of seeing the glass half full or half empty, the glass is still half filled, no matter how you perceive it.

I get it how you see it, for some it probably is no issue at all.


Though it's a few little things that come together here.
Adjusting mobs up instead of player chars down (right now it's a mix even) means:

- no feeling of playing with a weaker and weaker char the higher the difficulty is (not doing less and less damage)

- comparability of player damage regardless of difficulty

- easier balance for effects that rely on (or use) player damage due to it having one less variable to consider


And as I said, it's not a big thing at all,
it's just one simple thing that would have been no extra work if they had done it that way from the start.

1 year 146 days ago
+1
I don't get your point. Being debuffed or buffing ennemies, in the end it's all the same result.

It's just a matter of seeing the glass half full or half empty, the glass is still half filled, no matter how you perceive it.

1 year 146 days ago
+1
Posted by Deportivo 1 year 146 days ago
It shows that you don't know math and don't understand game design. Both of you. I won't even bother explaining this, go read a book or something, like Primary School Mathematics. 


But, you made me laugh, keep those suggestions coming! And explanations, too! Good job!
It is highly disgusting to see stupid and angry little wannabe trolls like you all over the place here.


With that ..."answer" you proved that it is already quite amazing you managed to use a computer to the point of posting here,
though your parents are absolutely irresponsible for letting you be without permanent supervision.

1 year 146 days ago
-3
It shows that you don't know math and don't understand game design. Both of you. I won't even bother explaining this, go read a book or something, like Primary School Mathematics. 


But, you made me laugh, keep those suggestions coming! And explanations, too! Good job!
1 year 147 days ago
-1
Posted by Pham Nuwen 1 year 147 days ago

Not that I approve of the system in any way but just to make a counterpoint, -90% damage dealt also (theoretically) impacts things like life leech whereas +900% enemy health doesn't.

That's a valid point, and "life leech" is strong but rather sparse, hp/s and hp/hit is much more frequent, and you'll have a hard time building a psyker on life leech. ;)


1.) In this case I like how PoE soft-caps this by relating the maximum life leech to your maximum HP.

2.) It would still be easier to balance as the life leech would stay the same, as the damage would not change ever due to mission difficulty, whereas the incoming damage does.
It it way easier to balance this correctly, and leaves less room for "broken-nes" and exploits if there is only one of the two changing with mission difficulty.

1 year 147 days ago

Not that I approve of the system in any way but just to make a counterpoint, -90% damage dealt also (theoretically) impacts things like life leech whereas +900% enemy health doesn't.