What's Wrong with Melee - Use this vid as a chance to comment your thoughts and help fix this :)

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7 years 105 days ago
This is the very first arpg I have ever played and the reason is because of it´s game speed and the Warhammer 40k setting of course. After around 30 hours of melee combat I think the melee in this game is on point. Every enemy feels like an enemy, every melee hit has an effect on the target you hit and all that in a very realistic speed. In the most arpg´s I have seen the game speed was unrealisticly fast and you had to fight masses of mobs which all died super easy and super fast when not in insanly numbers. I really like what the devs do with this game and that they go a very unique way in this genre. There is a heroic deed which says if you kill a certain target a few levels above yours.. and so on, so I assume that in the endgame you will fight targets which are way above your character level and I rather fight a few targets which are tough and where I have to use my skills proper to be competitive than just smashing the same buttons over and over again on crazy high numbers of enemies which die very fast. I want to feel when I kill something and this game does it right! I have just tried a ranged build recently and must say that you kill everything so much faster. That´s something where there should be a tweak. A melee build should be quite equal to a ranged build damage output wise in my opinion. What lacks is maybe a new aoe skill for combining a 1 handed melee weapon and a shield, or a pistol or something like that. Then you should be quite euqal in damage output to a ranged only build I guess.

I also don´t want to see no flashy things after a melee animation because most of my game time I have played with a single-handed chainsword and a shield and I just love the bloody and gore animations in this game. Sometimes if I fight a single enemy I zoom in just to see how good the animations are already looking in my opinion when you cut trough something with your chainsword and after that the blood is all over the place. Having any shine animations above or below that would just destroy the dark setting this game has. At the game you show in the video the enemies don´t really have any death animations. They just sink into  the ground and disappear. This game does this so much better as it let´s you know you have just killed something with it´s awesome bloody kill animations. And to see all that and have this dark setting all around I really don´t want to see anything flashing just because I have used a skill. 

The only thing I can agree with you is the sounds. Playing with a chainsword you can hear pretty clearly when you attack something and when not but on the other melee weapons I agree with you you barely notice what your character does soundwise especially when there is something with a heavy weapon next to you firing. But at this early stage of the game I think we are far off from what we will hear in the final game. To implement on top sounds is not as difficult as implement most off the other things that going to be implemented so the sounds will get better later for sure.

I just hope this game will not end as a diablo or grim dawn and so on clone because there are enough games like that out there already but that this game will go a very unique way in this genre especially game speed wise and it will be something that lasts and people will keep playing it because there is no other game like it.

7 years 105 days ago

I think you misinterpret some of what i'm asking for. On some animations flashy magic FX around the weapon aren't needed. But on a great deal of animations there is no clear way of telling how large your swing circle is for eg. Also when surrounded by enemies it's very difficult to tell what attack you have just done, unless you are very slow

re the attacks making nice noises when connecting - I agree - But you can't hear them if an enemy the other side of the map is shooting a gun at you, which 90% of the time they are. Enemies should never overshadow your own animation audio :) - Such a small tweak and it would be perfect. You can't honestly tell me though you are happy with the eviserator audio? 1/4 of the moves include revving the engine and using the saw feature :D

I'm really happy that you like the melee and don't get me wrong I like it too, but don't take this the wrong way.. It's probably exciting and satisfying because you haven't played the other ARPGS. I completely agree by end game they get a little rediculous with clear speed and attack speed but.. but there are things martyr can improve on (in my view) I'll guarantee there will be a HUGE amount of ARPG players coming over who won't like the combat, or will find it a little lackluster. That's what worries me and why i'm trying to help. I'm not asking for it to be completely overhauled but I do think it needs some changes to bring it up to industry standards.

~TLDR - Like Gameknight said - Slightly more umph behind connecting blows, more meaty audio, some minor tweaks and we are gucci :)

This comment was edited 7 years 105 days ago by Airsick Hydra
7 years 105 days ago
I agree with your points - melee actually feels great apart from the lacking sound effects on some weapons and the (a bit) odd swing animation and carrying stance of the greatsword :P

Playing as melee makes the game really hard - as you need to run into every enemy to deal with them and soak up all the firepower (really looking forward to trying the Assassin btw!) but it also feels so right!

To me, the game shines with the melee characters, as that keeps the pace up, the excitement of taking down enemies and dealing with dangerous situations - it's just not powerful enough. 

Suggestion: Melee should have higher damage than ranged - for the simple reason I put forward above: You need to get up-close and personal! 

7 years 105 days ago
im not watching the video. hate that most of infos nowadays is presented by youtube videos.

i have read the comments tho and melee to me feels pretty good except one thing : movement speed.
sure i have jump ability but i cant spam it so its only a temp solution.

like above poster said - each enemy feels like an enemy. the animations are enjoyable. two handed weapons
are too slow so i have to stick to one handed to make up for slow walk speed. if you fight alot of mobs
at once you most likely get slowed hence another disadvantage vs ranged weapons which should be
compensated somehow.

full rooms with bot/mech i have to agro some grps then run back out so mech breaks agro and i can decimate
the groups first. this kind of destroys melee a bit for me currently.

id also welcome more abilities ( or chances when you hit them ) to pummel the mobs. its really awesome
to jump into a crowd and smashing the shield on the ground once u landed for an aoe knockback.
i would like to being able to push enemies over a ledge. only managed to push of dead bodies so far so
maybe its possible already.

will there be tank mechanics? pulling mobs together with high durability and crowd control may also be
a good spot for melee to be. i dont feel like melee is overly hard just takes more time since you have to
recover inbetween fights while with most range wpns you wont get shot to orange while taking out enemy melee
thus overall gamespeed becomes faster naturally with ranged.

7 years 104 days ago
Game kNight

Yes, exactly! :)

This "dealing with every enemy" is what makes melee combat feels so great. That in my opinion just feels much more realistic as far as you can say in this setting. I think as melee you should be able to deal the same amount of damage than a ranged build espically with a 2 handed melee weapon but then again it doesn´t makes any sense that a great sword deals as much damage as a multi-melter or plasma cannon so maybe they can add something like a rage mode which you either get after you´ve soaked up a certain amount of damage or after you have dealt a certain amount of hits and then you have some kind of advantage from that for a limited time as ranged weapons needs reloads or cooldowns aswell. This way it may be more equal.

The key right now in my opinion is to put as much in deflect as you can when wearing a shield and use the hp skill which lets you regain supression after every succesful deflect. That really helps. The 2 handed melee loadout is just too weak right now.

7 years 106 days ago
Good Points nicely presented!
7 years 105 days ago

I agree with Icemanaut

7 years 105 days ago
Airsick Hydra
oh and the blood going everywhere when you hit someone in melee is a death animation :) going through a large mob with a sword, in my mind. Produces very little gore untill they die, at that point even a las pitsol produces the same gore effect. What i'm referring to is having more noticable gore because currently unless you zoom it its very hard to see. Again, not a huge change but a slight tweak would make all the difference. 

Also take force weapons for eg... These things SHOULD be expelling energy when hitting enemies, the mere fact that they don't is against what the weapons are and their lore :) - it doesn't need to look bad like a lightning bolt but I think effects like this would add a huge amount to the games visuals. 

7 years 104 days ago
Airsick Hydra

I think I got your point :) still I don´t see no reason for some flashy animations when using skills and try again to explain why:

there is only 4 skills on each ranged weapon and only 2 on 1 handed melee weapons, so you never have to use more than 4 combat skills and that alone is why I have never had the problem to don´t know which skill I just have used. It´s not too hard to overview in my opinion. With proper sounds even easier. I agree with you that the melee hits itself doesn´t include much gore and it for sure would be nice if there were some animations like cuting someones arm or leg off or something bloody like that but then again which other arpg offers you more gore than this game does already? I haven´t seen any so far and still believe that it would would made the game even less gore and bloody if you overlay the animation with some flashy stuff flying over your screen, because you probably focus on it much more than at the death animation itself. I think they said a party can hold up to 4 people. If I imagine 4 players firing consistantly with 4 plasma cannons then you´ll see pretty much flashy animations anyways so I don´t think it needs more and should rather stay this dark and simple because that transportates the Warhammer 40k setting so much better than in any other Wh40k game I´ve ever played. In an interview one of the devs said that they want to go a new way combat wise and that it has to feel different to run around in a heavy power armor which is just natural to slow you down. Don´t forget about the for sure soon coming assassins class which doesn´t wear a heavy armor so I don´t see no reason why this class should not be faster attack and momevement wise but for me the current game speed playing as inquisitor just feels so right.

There is an option to display weapon range. I don´t see any difference when turned on or off but I´ve seen a video of a guy which explained it a bit and it looked like it just highlinted the the ground within the weapon range a little bit. After playing so many hours melee in this game I don´t have the problem to not can tell how far my skill reaches before I use it and it doesn´t happen often that I miss an enemy because I just stand too far away. There was little learning curve at the start but now it works quite good with both 1 handed and 2 handed melee weapons. I rather have that learning curve instead of the game tells me all and everything. I really see your point but for me again there are so many arpg´s out there already which have the very same mechanics you are asking for, I just don´t want this game to be a clone with a Wh40k setting. Make it something fresh, something new that will also gets you players.

This comment was edited 7 years 104 days ago by IcemanAUT
7 years 103 days ago
I agree with a lot of what you are saying but for eg have you noticed that there is a huge discrepancy between the whirlwind abiltiies of the greatswords and teh distance of the damage. Currently you can destroy items on screen that visually your sword doesn't even hit (try it near a pillar) - This for me is something that really does detract a little from the satisfaction of some of the combat. I grant you it's a small thing but when you don't see a weapon connect and yet you kill something, this is quite a dissapointment to a player. This is my point re range of weapons, it's not just a case that they aren't obvious, it's also that some of them are disproportionate to the visual provided and while I could spend hours learning how bit it is. At the same time the very least I expect is the visual attack to reflect the actual area being damaged. Same foes for some arc swings. Enemies next to me are getting hit and yet they are nowhere near my weapon. Small things I know, but hugely important to some players. 

Moving on from this power weapons just "should" have some effects, if you read up on what they are :) i'm not asking for anythign crazy. But to someone who loves 40K, the fact that a power sword just looks like an ordintary sword is really a let down. Currently if anything the ranged weapons seem to really reflect perfectly the weapon / ammunition being used. I can't say the same for the melee weapons.

Finally it's not so much of a need for gore. But in other ARPG's combatr when you hit an enemy, presuming it doesn't kill them. They will react in a way which really lets you know they have been hit. Not only by sound but a niticable flinch. Such reactions are important (I feel at least) to give you a feeling of power etc. Currently the enemy mobs I aoe with my ww ability just slide back a little and fall over 1/2 of the time :D 

again, i'm not asing for an overhaul, just refinement. Because it is fairly good. But lets be honest, if something isn't perfect it'll get a bad review in the press.