Some thoughts on lore


Loaded up the game for my first mission, went for what seemed to be the easiest mission available, and faced down not only a few chaos space marines, but a chaos dreadnought as well.

How to say this without sounding like a foaming 40K nerd... I can tolerate the notion that the entirety of the Worldbearers is a faction you will face, with the interpretation of Space Marines being less swarmy than Rebels or Nurgle's minions, but being dangerous, armored foes.

But taking out a Dreadnought? I don't think a Space Marine could do that 1v1.

Also, crafting is a fun way to ensure progression, but tech priests don't really invent things in 40K. They maintain equipment by pressing the right button and chanting about it for three weeks while rubbing sacred oils on stuff.

That said the look, sound and feel does strike quite a chord so I'm more than willing to suppress these instincts in lieu of that. 

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6 years 314 days ago

I was hoping you'd chime in again, just to illustrate how broadly the interpretation of lore can be presented.

...Unlike other threads, at least you bother to read what I've written instead of seeing the first three words and kneejerk responding. -_-

6 years 314 days ago

Yet again I have to chime in.

The lack of knowledge is something completely different that the distribution of knowledge.  

As for R&D that can happen within the AdMech just fine. The core believe of the AdMech is that all technology existed and still exists due to the influence of the Machine God, his mere presence. STCs are the holy scripture yet "innovation" can still happen as long as it is labelled rediscovery.

Also I would not go around and throw the word heretek liberally. Same as with the word heretic you can only be such a thing if there is actually an accuser. You said that very specific personnel is except from this due to their rank - true - but so are entire BRANCHES of the Mechanicus in fact.

We can not look at the IoM of 40k and expect a perfect state. There is Law, there is Order yet it happens on a less strict base than in our world.

In fact you can be convicted of crimes you never committed and you may never be charged for other crimes even if you performed them in public.

The AdMech, just as many other Branches of the IoM, works on a "Right makes Right" base. Ofc some of the AdMech frown upon innovation - others will greet it though. THAT is the thing with a believe system than can be interpreted in MANY ways.

The truth, why certains worlds can't manufacture Vanquiser Turrets and Ammo anymore is due to this.

The knowledge is there, they don't share it though.

Every single Forge World is a political entity. There is no truly unified Adeptus Mechanicus, only on paper it exists.

The worth and value of a Forge World is directly proportional to its products and knowledge thus they guard it well, very well. Those worlds that can build Vanquishers won't share that  because that wold reduce their own worth. That would reduce the impact of their voice within the Adeptus Mechanicus - even the entire IoM.

Who do you think gets defended in times of need?

The Forge World that creates tons of crazy stuff, or the forge world that can only create Lasguns and Combat Fatigues?

As for modifications on existing patters.

They happen.

They happen alot.

When do they  happen?
When needed.

Armageddon and its several wars is a prime example.

Some of the most intense wars were fought here.

The AdMech created the Ordinatus Armageddon.

Rare occurence you could say.

Keep in mind they also retrofited the Marauder Bomber to the Marauder Destroyer on Armageddon.

The Marauder Destroyer is now replacing the Marauder Bomber as primary Bomber CAS Gunship.

And there are tons of such examples, of patterns that have been modified for certain battlefields and then adapted into standard production.

Without causing some digital heart attacks.

AS to why the majority of Adepts does not know the fundamentals of certain technologies: Why should they? The Mechanicus needs an army of Workers capable to assemble such weapons. As for the refinment of such technology and its understanding they do have their Magi that have proven to even survive several thousand years: What do you need to educate new Tech Priests for such duties if you got the very best already?

More so: Do you want to run the risk of those new guys falling for chaos and the like and taking their knowledge with them?

Do the old Tech Priests actually want to share their knowledge and the knowledge of the Data Vaults and lower their own position.

Just with anything in the IoM the problem is not inherently incompetence. The problem is politics.

They are literally living in a feudal yet also technocratic society where the value of each individual is measured by what he can contribute. The more unique talents you have, the higher you go.

Going from the standard of the average Tech Adept or Manufactorum Slave and measuring their knowledge ofc yields very low results. But that is intended. Ignorance is bliss.

Each Forge World is a machine, and most of its inhabitants are just cogs.

If you want to see and measure the power and competency of the AdMech we have to go for the higher echelons because THEY ARE the Adeptus Mechanicus.

It is literally a very small circle of elites that governs over uncountable minions while they bicker against each other and fight for power and influence.

The very fact that pretty much nobody knows anything about advanced technology has turned the elites of the Adeptus Mechanicus to be near untouchable by ANYONE within the IoM.

NOBODY can afford to lose their support, even less than that can afford to be actually shunned by them. And by making this knowledge rare you can not even try to hire, abduct or interrogate one of the lower ranks.

It speaks volumes that the Astartes have to send their Tech Marines to Mars and after that are never truly seen as their other brethren.

That aside we DO know of Research Sites of the Adeptus Mechanicus in regards to physics and weaponry or biological xeno studies. They do all that stuff. It is just very well hidden unless it goes wrong (In that case it goes very wrong!) and most likely under the tutelage of a high Ranking AdMech Member and thus off limits for pretty much anyone - even Inquisitors that dont have a VERY good reason to be there (Or bring enough Dakka to do so - the Dark Angels are not the only ones that make Inquisitors disappear.)

6 years 314 days ago

The problem with the Dreadknight is that the Mechanicus were missing the part of the template with the item's name...

The Mk2 Armored Infant Autonomous Bipedal Assault Carriage. Made for death worlders to protect their newborns, the Dreadknight is just a baby carrier that the Mechanicus decided needed to be inflated because "I heard you liked power armor so we put power armor in your power armor so you can smite while you smite!"

At least, that's what I think so I can sleep at night.

GW has some.. consistency issues, up to and including things like the lore where in some, M30 Terra has "glittering oceans" and is "like a watery jewel" and others "the dried up beds of oceans burned off in millennia past". I think it was this thread where I mentioned some of the more bizarre fluff issues (such as the 400 pound suit of Terminator armor) that are wholly inconsistent with the the rest (which was amusing, as I had to explain why Astartes were canonically about a half ton of solid bone and enhanced musculature because they're around seven feet tall outside of their armor when that bit of equipment crunch came up locally).

6 years 314 days ago

See, this is the sort of response i rather appreciate.

Knowledge, combined with a solid real-world comparison. 

Needless to say there are alot of moving parts, especially with a 30 year old franchise that has seen a colossal amount of growth from a swarm of writers and their personal ideas on the setting. Clearly the Mechanicus is capable of many things, of which there are many sources for a whole host of different scenarios. Which technically makes us both right. GW wouldnt be able to sell us new models every few years if the Mechanicus couldnt give us a sweet new hover tank, dreadnought, or things like Centurions.

I do think they probably have promptly destroyed whatever STC gave them Dreadknights though.

6 years 314 days ago

Manufacturing a brand new item isn't quite the same as what Moep and I were lobbing back and forth. Yes, they crank out "new" items in that armor and weapons are replaced (within limits, as by M41 the most basic of Crusade era Tactical Dreadnought Armor designs can take decades on the very best forge worlds to complete, and the rare warship produced takes centuries), but they almost never innovate anything.

I've been putting forward the rather huge amount of fluff-based evidence that shows that the AdMech is against R&D itself--innovation is dangerous (as the Schism of Mars shows, thanks to the Warp even your toaster can kill you) and those who innovate outside of very specific strictures are labeled "Hereteks", hunted by both the Mechanicum and Inquisition, and put to the torch, their works destroyed.

And, rightly so. Unchecked "building for the sake of building" helped usher in the Long Night, with the Men of Iron having helped cast down much of Humanity's works that weren't destroyed by the warpstorms or psykers turning into gates into the immaterium from whence hordes of daemons emerged unchecked to burn entire worlds. At least one Titan gained sentience by melding with a daemon well before the DarkMech started doing it intentionally, and even the simple lasgun can be corrupted into a vicious predator that can take control of its bearer. So... "don't stand in the bad" became a part of their religion.

A lot of hubbub is raised because of Cawl, and a handful of other noteworthies, that did complete R&D, without (usually) remembering that they either had very powerful patrons or were at the heights of the order... and discounting the untold billions of Mechanicus adepts burned for tech-heresy over the millennia, for things often as simple as putting a kind of trigger mechanism that wasn't intended for use in something. It takes millenia to incorporate a new STC component into common production, outside of the very rare burst of a mere handful of centuries; and much of the non-standard armor used by the Guard and Astartes are field modifications, frowned upon by the Mechanicus but forced into play by those powerful enough to say "no, we needed those assault cannons on that hull to properly fight the Greenskins, now let's introduce you to the Death Company mmkay?".

I mean, hell... the Mechanicus has largely forgotten how to properly build fin-stabilized armor piercing self-discarding sabot munitions (vanquisher munitions), and for the most part those can be produced by high school kids with access to a machine shop. Outside of Cawl, the bulk of the Mechanicus adepts don't even know how plasma weapons work, just how to put parts together in a ritualized construction line to produce the effect--much like 1940's Russian arms factories.

Actually, that makes for a very good analogy. I don't say that they don't know how to produce most of the technology at all. I keep reiterating that they've largely lost all understanding of the physics behind it, the processes that allow things to do what they do. The Imperator Titans, for example, only a very small number of Forge Worlds even retain the templates to build them, and it's been outright stated in lore that almost none of those even understand how something as "simple" as the main computer, the "soul" of the titan, functions. This is like turn of the century factory workers--especially wartime (WWI/WWII) workers--they largely had no understanding of the processes behind the flying machines they constructed, the armor that would belch flame and death, or even the complexities of something as relatively simple as the early machine guns. But they had diagrams and schematics, and one does not need intimate understandings of ballistic theory to machine and assemble a rifle.

A good number of Mechanicus fluff reminds me of an article that popped up in a trade rag some months ago, a specific set of pieces in a military museum, items from the conflict in Vietnam. Recovered were copies of the 1911 and M16 rifles, filed by hand from lumps of iron. Firing copies, made by children with very little understanding of what they were beyond the knowledge that they were weapons. That story rings true with the majority of the Mechanicus lore--even things said by exiled Hereteks about the order being children assembling things in the dark.

6 years 314 days ago

I think it is a common misconception that the Mechanicus doesnt manufacture new things.

Its common knowledge that the best technology that the Imperium possesses, is its oldest, dating back to the Dark Age of Technology and the 31st millenium.

It is also common knowledge that Techpriests are really picky about what they will do regarding technology, as they worship it, and like real-life religion, they have certain barriers they arent willing to cross for dogmatic reasons.

However, every once in a while a new STC (standard template construct) is found and we get new things. New bolter patterns, new power armor designs , new structures, etc. These things are treated like a miracle made manifest. Therefore, the Mechanicus is really wary/unwilling to do R&D to improve upon them (because, holy things are already perfection).

Theres also the fact that the Mechanicus worships old tech so fervently, they wont tear it apart to reverse engineer them (blasphemy!). Therefore they only have a vague idea of how they work and will merely maintain them to the best of their abilities, and mourn their loss like a family member when it happens.

But the Mechanicus most definitely manufactures things. Your Mk 7 Aquila armor that you see all your generic line marines wearing? Bolters? Plasma guns? Yep, manufactured, because they arent that special and theyve found an STC that can be used to churn them out. Its all the artificier and relic equipment that has seen its share of battles over millenia, that is passed down through the worthy ranks that is irreplaceable. 

They make new things. But like cars in real life, they made cast iron vehicles in the 30s and 40s that could survive atmospheric re-entry (exaggeration), but nowadays they are all plastic and crumple like a wet paper bag on a guard rail.

The new things just dont have the "spirit" of the old things. Quite literally, as older machine spirits are worshipped as demi-gods.

Hows that for a nerd rant?


Oh, case in point: Primaris Marines, Mk 8 and Mk 10 Armor, Bolt Rifles, etc.

This comment was edited 6 years 314 days ago by Imperialist
6 years 316 days ago
Posted by BrotherLazarus 6 years 317 days ago

"That being said I feel Dreadies, Hellbrutes and Decimators in Martyr are too easily taken down and could do with around a %200 buff across the board."

Horus, is that you? I sense heresy. No, but seriously... run a CR3 tarot mission while at PL1, even with a group... and tell me they need +200% more health regen. -_-

They need to be approached to make them more dangerous, and different, not just making them sponges. Sponges are boring.

Let's try this one again, with caffeine in my bloodstream this time (I miss that sleep thing, I remember it being nice). The first bit of sass is fine, the second line... is kind of bad, even for me (it would be easier if I could just edit my damn comments).

The Champions and Elites need to be handled in a manner befitting the franchise, and preferably away from the ever-present ARPG "Let's just stack their stats across the board, we're done with that mob!" that turns so many of them into "whalp, I'm done because I just fought my fourth mob in a row that had twenty seven million hit points because that's... difficulty".

This gets into my common "artificial vs. natural" difficulty rant. The former, is things like random instant death tiles/effects, vastly inflating hit points or a specific stat to seem more difficult but in reality just act as a time-gate in the form of ablative hitpoints.

Draw from the tabletop, bring in some of those mechanics. You may laugh, but tabletop to digital can work, and it can work well. So with three decades of codices (not "codexes", bloody GW) to draw from, start putting those traits in. It'll boost difficulty without the lazy, bland, and offputting than the trifecta of "it needs more HP/regen/damage", and it will make Martyr stand out in an oversaturated genre.

Currently, the Champions and Elites are just more of the same... and that can be grating when the game spawns two Dreadnoughts on the same platform--since they act just like the ranged and melee mobs had their behavior compiled into a single body, all they offer is a timegate fight that isn't really that hard, just irritating (especially since the Elites have weirdly variable "leashes" even among the same type, and resetting allows them to heal up almost instantly--this can be infuriating when you're kiting one inside a relatively small room and it just buggers off back to full HP after burning through all of your consumables).

So personally, I don't feel like they should just be flat buffed. They need tweaks, I won't argue that, because the Marauders tend to do more damage to me more consistently than even Hellbrutes and that's just wrong for what is (tabletop-wise) a 5-10pt model upgrade for your sergeant vs. an elites slot choice... though I would also argue that the Marauders specifically need the Emprah's Power-nerfbat in a few areas just because of how bloody frequent they are (I've fought less champions per room in the challenge maps in Torchlight 2, and those are basically almost entirely populated by champions!). That is, however, a wild digression from my point and beating the dead grox again.

They need some unique mechanics, and they do need some tweaking, that much is not in dispute. But calling for a flat % buff across the board is just going with the lazy method of game "balance and difficulty".

6 years 317 days ago

"That being said I feel Dreadies, Hellbrutes and Decimators in Martyr are too easily taken down and could do with around a %200 buff across the board."

Horus, is that you? I sense heresy. No, but seriously... run a CR3 tarot mission while at PL1, even with a group... and tell me they need +200% more health regen. -_-

They need to be approached to make them more dangerous, and different, not just making them sponges. Sponges are boring.

6 years 317 days ago

Grew up in the 80s playing the Table top and have on and off since.

Off the top of my head I can recall obliterating or at least disabbling Dreadies (and other similarly armored vehicles) on many occasions with varied weapons from single model space marines including, lascannon (oh I wish these were ingame...) Plasma cannon, Multimelta, rocket launcher (krak) (again would be nice to have ingame), I mainly used flamers for my tactical squads and never really engaged heavies with them they were more mob control and distraction units for me, other dreadie obliterating weapons being the expected Powerfist, chainfist, lightning claws and thunder hammer, power weapons (the latter mainly on character models).

That being said I feel Dreadies, Hellbrutes and Decimators in Martyr are too easily taken down and could do with around a %200 buff across the board.

The Techpriest....well funny you say that as I do feel its more a requisition type arrangement even though its clearly crafting, not as much since 4.0 with the longer crafting times, crafting tech tree and the use of stat boosting mats and such but definitely prior to. Its going to be interesting seeing where they take crafting from here.

This comment was edited 6 years 317 days ago by SolarCerberuS
6 years 319 days ago

Gaunt ans his Ghosts also killed some CSM in a direct, or somewhat direct, confrontation.

Those situations are still a bit different than how this game plays: We deploy alone to actively destroy what could be called a company of a renegade guard regiment with heavy weapons supported by several squads of Chaos Marines including powerful beings as sorcerers, daemons and heavy war engines.

6 years 319 days ago

Outside of reasonable fluff.

$@#$ Ward and Goto and their $@#$ mary sue "we can kill anything and survive unprotected in the Warp" characters.

Though Cain has taken on traitor legionnaires in melee combat and come out on top, so it's not outside the realm of plausibility entirely... just that it's a bit of an odd power jump.

6 years 319 days ago

Well so far the only global ability I remember from being implemented can be "bought" for investigation and is a slightly more powerful turret. That way those abilities may be tailored to the mission in question but they will also most likely be limited.

In the end it will still be the badass inquisitor that fights better than 99% of all know characters in fluff. ;)

6 years 319 days ago

The trailers all show late-build (not current build, I'm guessing in-house test build) use of lances and artillery bombardments (bound to the 5 key, Global Ability perhaps?), so I'm operating under the not unwarranted assumption that at some point we'll start having access to more of the raw might an Inquisitor can bring to bear on the problem. Though I am also hoping to see some non-combat missions in Investigations, as it would be interesting to do something other than purge and data-hunt in them (not expecting, just hoping).

Besides, we wear helmets. Except the ones who don't. And those armors probably have a deployable voidmask anyway.

Stop trampling all over my lance strikes! :P

6 years 319 days ago

I doubt that we see much if ANY of such things.  

Keep in mind half the missions right now happen aboard a space station etc.

Punching a hole with a lance strike might just as well be "end game" for our Inquisitor. ;)

6 years 319 days ago

Does calling in a lance strike on the position count? 'Cause I think Amberlee could make an argument while boffing aboot with Cain of "soloing" a daemonic incursion... but she made good use of all the assets in play. I'm sure once we can begin calling in lance strikes and Valkyrie (whatever Forge World replaced the Valk with as the gunship) CAS missions, it'll feel a little less... overpowered on the side of our Throne Agents.

6 years 319 days ago

For the sake of gameplay we have to accept that certain things simply are not compatible with the fluff. At all.

As for all the anecdotes of some fancy inquisitors I think we might find none that makes a single inquisitor solo a Dreadnought, Nurgle Sorcerer, 3 Death Guard Havocs and 20 Cultists at once - on a regular base.

6 years 320 days ago
Posted by Airsick Hydra 6 years 323 days ago

The issue is, if you try to make rules from the board game or even the book, heck even real life - directly into a game. Especially an ARPG. You basically are throwing the rulebook out of the window for the creation of an ARPG, as players for the past decased have come to expect a linear progression in enemy size, health-damage and "challenge"

ARPG - Normal man - Fat man - Fatter man -   Elite

40k -       Heretic          -  CSM      -     Maraud -    Dread 

If you take away that format of enemy types then you basically throw away what works for the games genre. Enemies that are progressively large and impressive to fight against. All for the sake of being more like a book? - Dangerous to try and please book readers when the majority of people playing the game will be gamers :D

We will also be killing much bigger things than dreads!

Somehow Im sure Hector Rex killed more than one chaos dreadnought in his short life :) Im not sure about poor assassins, but my crusader from Ordo Malleus is capable to deal with those too.

I see more troubles with lore and rules in inquisitors with eviscerators (ministorum priest weapons) or with autoguns (hive gang weapons). But oh well..

6 years 323 days ago

In-game, both of the chainsword's attacks are Fleshbane. ;)

I've had little trouble rampaging about with my ranged characters, it's just that the tank spec is currently a bit wonky, and the stun-lock for Eviscerate doesn't ever actually proc (it's supposed to stun your target until the attack is finished). Would be less of an issue if I could actually jump-pack over them to get away, but that doesn't work most of the time.

Largely though, I'm just tired of mobs with high regen rates. They've been tired since Diablo 2, dig up a CSM codex and gimme something different.

6 years 323 days ago

First of all, a word about the lore  and what an ARPG is to W40k. Disclaimer : I'm a big fan, playing W40k since 1996, big fan of the horus heresy novels, and Dan Abnett is a god for all guardsmen ... ^^

But this is an ARPG; yet it is set in a setting we all know and love, but the deal of an ARPG is facing big monsters with big stuff and beeing the biggest among the big. It's hardly compatible with respect of the lore. 

So, what I can say is : launch the game, have fun killing dozens of CSM and dreadnoughts and nurgle demons with a lasgun, then close the game and open a good book about space marines facing their traitor fellows, but take each one for what it is.

Now ... I don't agree to the point about marauders and regen. I play assassin with an autogun and marauders are, at best, a distraction. Yes I have to run and shoot and avoid their hook, but they're no real challenge even when 4 ou more of them are trying to hook me. Maybe the autogun is a bit cheated ... not maybe, it's a fact, because I cut CSM in pieces as easily as marauders and it's funny but a bit ridiculus, as I have hard time killing CSM with a plasma gun. But my point is that marauders are not designed to be faced chainsword in hand, try with a fleshbane ranged weapon.

6 years 323 days ago
Airsick Hydra

I've been trying to increase my damage. I know there are higher damage chainswords out there--and the lore quite pointedly shows that chainswords penetrate armor just fine, thank you very much :P--but I just haven't been able to get any.

I took to heart the aspect that you're expected to use what you like, and largely that works and works well (see other thread). But this problem also happened to be an issue with my power axe.... and my power sword. Not so much with my hammer, but that had other issues to deal with--definitely not suited to my playstyle. Unfortunately towards the end of T1, the Hammer becomes BIS (which I think I brought up in the other thread) which seems entirely counterintuitive to the whole "use what fits your playstyle, you don't have to just ditch gear".

My ranged characters, for example. They work just fine, and are a blast (pun intended) to play. I'm still rocking a grenade launcher as the off-weapon of my heavy specialist, because even though it's not "optimal" it's a riot and thins out trash quite nicely allowing my heavy bolter to chew up the bigger stuff.

Also, of note... I have had issues with Nurgle regen with a variety of weapons, the chainsword is just the most egregious example--largely because they can hit you for between 800 and 1500 points of damage.... each... and largely clump up. Even a group of three can be pretty lethal pretty fast. :)

This comment was edited 6 years 323 days ago by BrotherLazarus
6 years 323 days ago

What you established is that either the healing is too great per enemy and in particular against groups of enemies but only in relation to the damage you are doing. That means there are solutions in either

  •  reducing their regen
  •  reducing the number of enemies who have regen 
  •  increasing your damage. 
  • removing it entirely. 

I'd rather entertain any combination of the top 3 personally. All i'm saying.

Re the weapon choice - Not sure what your complaint is? - The game isn't to blame that you choose to not taken a Pen based weapon in either slot because you would rather look cool :D a little planning in games with an intended strategic element is pretty much expected! 

6 years 323 days ago
Airsick Hydra

Regen for solo players is a detriment--it can be played off well enough in groups, but generally that's when you add a stacking percentage to a mob per extra player, much like bonus health and damage is added in many games to offset higher drop chances.

Even in pairs it's... not quite right. Most of the Nurgle-Marked enemies are currently adjusted too high for anything but raw DPS to handle, so playing as a dedicated tank, with a support off weapon (area denial grenade launcher, in my case) rather than DPS off weapon, many nurgle marked units will simply outheal me and kill me through sheer attrition--hellbrutes are Fun for that, because their armor means my melee weapon AND my grenade launcher are useless, my bash and jump pack damage are low, and I spend about two minutes holding Eviscerate, bashing, and jet-packing before it finally drops. Fortunately, the Hellbrute does far less damage per hit than the Marauder (wat) so it's more survivable. Ish. Nurgle Dreadnoughts, on the other hand, suppress->stunlock->facemelt. Which brings us to BIS, because the chainsword is my personal preference largely for both fluff and mechanical reasons (cleave is only 1.3s instead of 5-10s), but is abysmal against armor (again, wat, diamantine teeth designed to chew armor off bad vs armor?)... which means to most, hammer or axe is BIS. This is diverting into the other thread's discussion, so I'll stop here and save it for the next comment in that thread.

6 years 323 days ago

Well you can look at regen two ways. 

Advantage - It promotes more direct or focused combat and confrontation. Forcing the player perhaps out of their comfort zone or even for co op players to learn to "focus" a target, something a lot of ARPG's don't encourage.  

Disadvantage - Players who lack the raw damage feel frustrated. Then "if" the groups are too large it's a rather difficult fight because the damage spread is unsustainable. 

Trust me when I say - The regen is much much better than it was 4 months ago. Granted it still needs a little more tuning. Would personally be sad to see it go as I enjoy the play style variation or focus it encourages. Especially in co op.  

Perhaps also worth noting that the groups of marauders are only a very recent addition. Previously it would only be 2+ or 3 if you were very unlucky. Given how they now work i'd expect this to be reverted. Packs of these aren't really of much benefit other than frustrating players. 

6 years 323 days ago
Airsick Hydra

Given how common they are and what they are, I honestly think "fat man" should be Marauder,  and "fatter man" should be CSMs. I frequently enter rooms (in investigation missions) with 5-7 Marauders (see my feedback thread for specific rant there), while generally I only encounter CSMs in small enough groups (though 3+ Havocs is a mass of fail because of their ability to stun-lock you, resetting your CDs, and can keep that up until you're dead--stunlock isn't challenge, it's sadism, but I digress) that they're definitely more suited for the "champion" role.

As I posted in my feedback thread on Nurgle marked units... ARPG players have a profound dislike, largely, for healing aura mobs. Mostly because they're abused as a gear-check in many games (Grim Dawn is particularly guilty of that), so we kill them in the tens of thousands per playthrough of any given ARPG, and it's just a lazy way to provide "challenge" vs. challenge. Coupling high health regen with high damage usually results in players going out to powerlevel to get past them--which we can't do here because they're everywhere, in groups of three to a room (or more, many more). And that's if you don't get unlucky on tripping alarms. Handling Marauders at once? That's an exercise in masochism, it's easier to just surrender the mission than spend the next five minutes moving, shooting, and retreating (or, as sword and board, bashing your face against the keyboard in sheer frustration while waiting for your heal CD to refresh).

Bit of a thread-derail, but it's a comment that needs to be reiterated.

6 years 323 days ago

The issue is, if you try to make rules from the board game or even the book, heck even real life - directly into a game. Especially an ARPG. You basically are throwing the rulebook out of the window for the creation of an ARPG, as players for the past decased have come to expect a linear progression in enemy size, health-damage and "challenge"

ARPG - Normal man - Fat man - Fatter man -   Elite

40k -       Heretic          -  CSM      -     Maraud -    Dread 

If you take away that format of enemy types then you basically throw away what works for the games genre. Enemies that are progressively large and impressive to fight against. All for the sake of being more like a book? - Dangerous to try and please book readers when the majority of people playing the game will be gamers :D

We will also be killing much bigger things than dreads!

6 years 323 days ago

I'll take a look under your username for that thread.

Also, I don't imagine an Inquisitor would really care to have a hard line conservative tech priest around. Plus we can just imagine it's reclaimed tech anyway, in which case the cogboy is just "purifying" the stuff after the sinners laid hands on it.

6 years 323 days ago

Just wait, if you run up against the Word Bearers enough, you'll fight a Decimator at some point. And a Hellbrute for the Nurgle side. I had a similar reaction at first (though for the record, Dreadnoughts in lore are horribly vulnerable things without an infantry screen, as anti-armor devices to the rear or exposed joints is enough for Guardsmen to bring them down and we all know Guard are... not the strongest of factions) but eventually chalked it up to "we'll see them later in the game after they have more game".

With the crafting, I don't think they're "inventing" anything here, so much as building one-offs for you (Moep and I had a loooong one on this topic in another thread, take a quick search for my username and see the foaming 40k nerd action WITH KUNG FU GRIP!), and the "blueprint" drops will probably eventually be explained as "ranking up" enough with them to earn access to better equipment.

Of course, as Moep pointed out... 8e has kinda thrown all that for a loop with Cawl crawling out of his mother's basement for the first time since the Emperor was being an arrogant know-it-all... with oodles of new tech. Not just alternate marks, but genuinely new tech. *shudder* Echoes of Ward still live on. It coulda been The Lion, but nope, had to be Rowboat Girlyman. *cough* I digress...