[Grinder Perk] [formulas]

17

Hello,


- First, i'd like to point at 'grinder' perk (+30% damage but character deals no crit).

I like a lot this idea, while pushing it myself in paper pen RPG.

Trying to offer another way, differing from the classic 'crit_or_nothin' is very nice.

Looking for more mod of this nature, i've found the '+15% damage -5% crit chance' with heat weapons (skill tree).

If goin 'no crit' for more consistent damage, at the price of the proc_on_crit abilities all the skilltrees offer, i'd like the damage boost being more consistent / more incentive.

Giving up on heal on crit (1% of max HP), DoT on crit with energy / heat weapons, vulnerability on crit, etc .. should be a bit more rewarded.

Grinder being +40% damage for no crit and heat weapon skill +20% damage -10% crit chance would feel a bit more appealing.

Also consider some skill synergy with 'grinder', or being reinforced when grinder is selected.

- Secondly, i wonder if we have a chance to know what kind of %damage modifier are additive, and which are multiplicative, and in which order ?

Maybe add some target / training dummy for test when building character ? (or before validating perk / skills).


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[Grinder Perk] [formulas]
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176 days ago
+1

Mighty Snakefist insists for quite a while that they are listed on tooltips, or in some player-available format, such as Wiki.


Example how others do, Blizzard WC3 1.29 patch change:


1) Prior calculation: (Avg Damage *Critical Multiplier) + Item Damage = Total Damage

2) Removed + damage item interaction from multiplier calculation: (Avg Damage + Item Damage)*Critical Multiplier = Total Damage


Looks the same, but are quite quite different in fact - not to be Mysterious:

  • Current; 40avg + 10 from items (40+10)*3=150
  • Change; 40avg +10 from items (40*3)+10=130

40 being an average normal damage, 10 being bonus damage from items, and 3 being the crit modifier (300%)


Additive vs multiplying. Some 15-20%, depending on numbers, even more on skill level where 300% becomes 400%. Additional damage is quite often 24, or attack speed changes comes to change much.


So... This is QUITE important! What does CD +20 stands for, anyway? +20 Damage over normal? (that's reasonable, in fact!) When EXACTLY it's applied? We have no idea, and won't have one until Devs decide to publish it, because of PL system - most of those could be normally reverse engineered, but not here.


Most important is to keep the CC% in reasonable rate - Snakefist, in His Wisdom, considers them Nevermore than 30%, and that just in mid or endgame, while CD% of +100% proved it's worth in d2, and higher numbers did the opposite in d3.


Apart from the mechanic unknown, the "CC activate procs, but doesn't deal crit-damage", which is important for large number of passives, needs to be known (Snakefist, in His Wisdom, thinks that procs are completely unneeded, and crits can play their role for passives, and clearly stated values, such as 3% or 10% for item-skills)

This comment was edited 176 days ago by SnakefistIfSo
175 days ago
+1
There is a easy way to test crit and crit dmg. Make a new char skill the crit tree and only take the  CC and CD skillnodes Use the same Weapon for some levels and look at the numbers ^^. After 5 or 6 chars out of the tutorial the things should be clear ;).
170 days ago
+1
The % more damge on a crit is fix. CD is added to your raw weapon damage as it seems. Like a 100 Dmg hit with 30 CD = 130 dmg hit that scales up to 250% more damage on the 130 dmg basis + whatever modifiers from your skill. So if you have a 100 dmg weapon and 100 CD every crit will be based as if you have 200 Weapon damage.
159 days ago
Irrelewahnt
Assuming your numbers are correct, which I do, that should make singletarget charge-shoots weapons capable of doing 2.4metric tons of holy-f***-thats allot of damage

Or, if the number of damage instances are increased in, for example, Heavy Flamer it is possible that a AOE build with very low CD could be effective. Interesting take on critical damage. 

Not sure if I like it or not, but leaning against not so much for reasons yet unknown.


Sincerly,

Vlricus von Kronstadt

159 days ago
Well let's think about it that way. The highest crit I saw was a 9.6k hit wit a 111dmg weapon on one target. And I don't talk about the buged last skill in the first psyker tree ;).
180 days ago
Even 50% more damage won't make up for a crit build. Someone told me those days what crit does and I will NEVER leave the house without a crit build after i doubble and tripple checked the numbers. Crit is FAR to good to pass on.
179 days ago
Posted by Irrelewahnt 180 days ago
Even 50% more damage won't make up for a crit build. Someone told me those days what crit does and I will NEVER leave the house without a crit build after i doubble and tripple checked the numbers. Crit is FAR to good to pass on.
Hello,


It will depend from what the dev team really want to do / offer as optional 'viable' way to grow characters.

I was wondering if this perk 'grinder' was left there without any long time / HL purpose in mind, or if it was a sign of something that could eventually grow later (with upcoming content) / become a viable way.

But you are right : even a 50% buff to non crit-build damage wont be enough.

Anyway, i hope they will watch closely at this option, since they included a perk who can be seen / perceived as a basis for such builds (DPS build without crit).

It can also be considered as an option for support / heal builds.

But seriously, offering some nice alternative to the 'crit_or_nothin' way of dps (that grow more and more in every rpg / mmo / arpg) would nice (beeing 60-75% efficient from crit build would be enough, imho).

178 days ago
TonTonUB
It would be nice if it would be 30%dmg, *30% end DR. This would make it beneficial for tanky builds and stuff.
177 days ago
Think-think-think, Mighty Snakefist is The Friend of People and The Enemy of Hidden Mechanics, stated multiple times already during the last 1+ years...


One particular indication suggests that crits (with Grinder Perks) are *done* but doesn't change damage output. Snakefist would spend some time to test this, but... such a mechanic should be public, and not try-or-fault test of an individual (or Multiple Personalities).


Other than that, whole Crit mechanic is complicated enough and has influence over way too much aspects of the game, that it makes doubtful that just math can give any accurate representation of actual quantity (including major things as class influence).


And this comes from the person, who did, in His Wisdom and Endless math-balancing obsessiveness, calculated things such as how much each pizza is owerpowered or underpowered, based on caloric content and delivery time. This (He couldn't be sure without mechanism made public) looks pretty much like try-and-fail-and-have-it-balanced-during-the-years-if-ever kind of thing. CC% limits representing one factor - Grinder is a constant, CC% isn't... And so on. 


(For a Refference, Mighty Snakefist leveled one Melee Crusader as Grinder-only (50lvls, 20% bonus) and one (currently 47/60, not 50 because of Superstition! AND A Conspiracy!) as a crit-based - couldn't really tell the difference, but those were different game-versions. And we can't know now about possible CC-limit - thing that is highly desirable, because in D3 with ~80% CC and ~800% CD a vast majority damage comes from criticals, so non-crit is in fact a fatal failure and proc-mechanism is a product of not Madness, but Complete Ignorance from the Dev team - in short, CC% needs a reasonable, hard-limit to avoid all end builds being crit-based and Perks such as Grinder (and possibly more, added later) a viable option. To support this, D2 had CC such as 10% and 25%, and CD was in fact just double damage - easy to predict, easy to control - and no stupid procs...

176 days ago

Anyone care to explain/point me to the formula used for crits/damage in this game?


Without information my suggestion: pseudo-random crit chance, with baseline always being 0. If you are really scared crits will flood the market, make an inverse comparison between attackspeed and highest possible dmg crit, so high attackspeed means reduction in max crit dmg.

These are just suggestions until I understand how critical hits are calculated and how corresponding damage is calculated.


Sincerly,

Vlricus von Kronstadt

176 days ago
In regards to more information: yes, yes with sugor on top.

My worst nightmare: Capping crit % at for instance 25%, could lead to multiple sources of crit. (Which is a thing in dota.) And yes, that means your crit can crit. Even if you operate with reasonable numbers, a "crit-crit" is ... of the charts. Mind you, since dota uses pseudo-random for almost everything it also make the chance of "crit-crit" very low, and it has a damage maximum far below the damage had it been calculated directly from items, basedmg etc.

(7000 hours dota so yes that is the game I will most likly reference, but purley because I know some numbers there.)


But ty for information @SNAKEFISTIFSO‍ . You seem to have a very good understanding of numbers. Hope you will share more wisdom with me in the future.


Sincerly,

Vlricus von Kronstadt

174 days ago
Vlricus von Kronstadt
Thank you! Two decades of working as a modder, balancer and devs (small to medium projects) probably helped :D


@IRRELEWAHNT‍ 

No. Just no - would need to face the opponents of the same PL and watch individual characteristics (armour and the unknown amount of reduction or other unknown resistance which will interfere) or concentrate to one exact type opponent + would have to reverse-calculate PL curve (can be done, but is a bother) because it won't be the same value on all testing maps. No offense, but Devs should publish that... and other mechanisms... there will be plenty of time to calculate things then :D

174 days ago
SnakefistIfSo
Sure the devs should publish that but how long do we talk against a wall when it comes to tooltips or some kind of explanaition? ^^. I don't even know if it's better in the final build.

The tutorial maps are good for that kind of testing. Don't end the mission but abort it and you have the same enemys over and over again ^^.

171 days ago
Irrelewahnt

Yes you're right - Mighty Snakefist didn't thought of that...  and He was thinking and a thinking, til there's nothing He ain't thunk...


So, you're awarded by Mighty Thinking Cap, Level 1


Still, He would prefer mechanics explain - He thinks something like 'they use those in the formulas, why not publishing them?', stilll

171 days ago
SnakefistIfSo
On one side I'm sure they don't announce annything because things may still change untill release. Doing up to 250% more damage is a bit insane anyway.
171 days ago
Irrelewahnt
This.

That'sd why i'd really like they add another way of dpsing , without ending on the 'crit or nothing' pathway to madness, where a watergun destroy a titan because of a mighty (and absurd) crit chance combined to some delirium tremens crit damage modifier.

I'd leave mighty crit chance and over abused crit damage modifier for some solid alternative, i.e. dealing dps on a regular basis (+ reasonnable proc / reactive ). Being in the range of 60-75% of top crit damage would be enough, by far.

One or more skilltrees, combined with some perks could result in a nice overall build, dedicated to fight without crit :

- Make 'no crit' dmg bonus being multiplicative

- Every X hits (2 or 3), you deal Y dmg (static value)

- you dont deal crit but dont endure crit

- Channeled attack deal +30 / 60 / 90% dmg

- etc ...


170 days ago
Snakefist, in His Wisdom, would say 100% is good for CD%, if the CC% is kept low enough (meaning 10-25%). In recent years, people forgot the meaning of crit - a hit that happens rarely but does additional damage or have a special effect. If the crits are uses as a procs, CC% becomes the more important of two, values such as 10% or 25% should be at max or 'on hit' flat %-value should be used.


In games such as D3, with CC/CD in 80/800 range, most damage is done through crits and not rolling one becomes 'crit fail', with the main difference crit hit in those ranges is virtually impossible to control.


Ideally, Crit-build should be as viable as straigh-damage one. In that matter, Snakefist thinks crits should activate proces, but don't deal damage. Player will have, even involuntarily, *some* CC - or perhaps may intentionally go to medium-value + Grinder, so effect on crit would still appear, only less often. And crit-less build should be available, too.


And those are IDEAL condition, very very hard to predict all over the crit line and usually balanced continuously until reasonably good balance is found. But Snakefist is glad that NeoCore goes in non-crit direction, too!