First of all, hi! I've been eyeing this game ever since Neocore announced it and, finally, decided to buy it. I must say-I'm familiar with Neocore's games and own most of their games, so as far as making great ARPG/hack&slash, I have full confidence in Neocore and it's final product.
That being said, Martyr's control scheme needs some serious work. I understand that it's supposed to be ARPG first and twin stick shooter...some place lower, but as it is right now, controls feel extremely clunky, while poorly trying to cater to both styles.
So, what exactly is my problem with the current control scheme? It's directional keys for movement and specific dodge direction bound to each, separate direction button.
Why try to reinvent the wheel, when there are plenty of standard practices to go around with movement and dodging? For example, directional arrow keys, that very few players, if any, use for movement, instead of widespread and universally accepted WASD keys? Why?
Was that done, in order to accommodate buttons for dodge direction buttons? Why not use directional double tap, or a key combination like shift/ctrl+WASD?
Honestly speaking, offering us the control scheme style selection for either twin stick shooter or ARPG would work best, but having one control scheme that accommodates both play styles is also possible. So I'd like to suggest a control scheme, that would fit both tastes quite well, in my opinion.
Movement keys: WASD
Dodge style: either double tap directional key, or press Ctrl\Space+directional key(it's possible to create such aproach, right?)
Attack 1:LMB
Attack2:RMB
Attack3:Q
Attack4:E
Innoculator:Tab
Grenade:Big'ol "G"
Suit Ability:Space(if not used for dodge), or 1
That way everything is within player's reach, allowing for quick reaction and gameplay feeling more responsive. Of course, all of that is my personal suggestion and not a "must have" demand. However, having the ability to combine buttons for dodging, would make things much more smoother in either case.
So pelase, at the very least, allow us to use a combination of buttons for dodge buttons.
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Also, on a sidenot, this community section is confusing as all hell! Can't there be a plain'ol forums sections?
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Hey there!
About our community site: in our Community "HUB" you need to filter the main page's "content feed", it's like a "thread wall" or a community site's post feed, it's not like a classical "forum" list, it's a mix of official blog-like posts and community thoughts (about anything what is related to Neocore Games).
It's maybe a little confusing or not so clear at the first time, but if you know what you wanna see or do in there, it's just a few clicks for anybody (easy to find & create a new post).
And ofc, we would like to optimize it's layout and navigational UX in the future (design & development in progress).
But ofc, I would like to know more about your user-side experience; what exactly is confusing for you on the community hub's surface right now?
One thing I personally don't understand is on one hand there are a lot of complaints about dodge being WASD and not based on mouse click, because it's "clunky". But the same people complaint that movement should be WASD? - How will that be any less clunky? :D
I'm having the same problem as the initial poster. this game just seems to be utterly confused about what kinda gamestyle it wants.
I mean, going with the standard control scheme, you need at least three hands in order to access all controls. One hand on WASD for the dodge controls, one on the arrow keys for movement, and one on the mouse for attacking and and aiming. How did this ever get implemented into the game? Why can't is just use the standard wasd(movement)-space(dodge/cover)-qer/tab/etc(abilities)-mouse(aiming and shooting) control scheme that pretty much every single game out there uses? I'm just utterly confused by the thought process behind it.
The inability to shoot while walking also irritates me, even though it seems to be intended. It just makes it feel very clunky and frustrating to get rushed by melee enemies, of which there seem to be a lot. I'm a highly trained assassin/wearing power armor. Let me take shots on the run!
So far the only winning strategy I seem to have figured out is to take sniping potshots at enemies from outside vision range, especially once I bump into one of the dreadnoughts. Everything else just ends in unsatisfying slogmatches that feel as if my biggest enemy is the harebrained control scheme itself.
And melee is even worse. Having the same button for walk and basic attacks just means that half the time I walk past enemies rather than attacking them. And big enemies don't do nearly enough telegraphing to make dodging in melee even remotely feasible with the assasin. Aside from the fact that the dodge button scheme already strongly urges me to never use them to begin with.
It could be that I'm completely missing something, but in it's current state the game is just completely resistant to a green player like me wanting to get into it. I was really excited when seeing the trailers and hearing the devs talk about it at various events, but the actual experience that's in the beta right now is something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemies.
Hey there!
About our community site: in our Community "HUB" you need to filter the main page's "content feed", it's like a "thread wall" or a community site's post feed, it's not like a classical "forum" list, it's a mix of official blog-like posts and community thoughts (about anything what is related to Neocore Games).
It's maybe a little confusing or not so clear at the first time, but if you know what you wanna see or do in there, it's just a few clicks for anybody (easy to find & create a new post).
And ofc, we would like to optimize it's layout and navigational UX in the future (design & development in progress).
But ofc, I would like to know more about your user-side experience; what exactly is confusing for you on the community hub's surface right now?
Re: confusing forum
I'm pretty sure what OP means is that all the forum topics are simply thrown at the viewer in one unsorted mess, rather than being neatly divided into sub sections that have to be looked at separately instead.
The problem with "a little confusing at first but easy once figured out" is that a lot of people just won't bother finding out and instead eschew the forums as a whole if they look like an unorganized mess. My first reflex upon opening the forum was to just not bother, but since there is no steam discussion (which would be an example for a more organized forum that's intuitive to look around) there was nowhere else to turn to with my grievances.
One thing I personally don't understand is on one hand there are a lot of complaints about dodge being WASD and not based on mouse click, because it's "clunky". But the same people complaint that movement should be WASD? - How will that be any less clunky? :D
Because movement on arrow keys hasn't been used in big games since the late 90s, and for a reason. WASD is much more ergonomical for the average pc setup (mouse on the right side of the keyboard and keyboard central in front of user).
Dodging is something that's done only occasionally, so having it tie up the prized WASD buttons is just strange design.
Movement on the other hand is something you do constantly, so putting it on awkward arrow keys or even mouseclicks (while also having abilities slotted on the same mousebutton that makes you move) is also awkward.
So it's pretty obvious why a person who wants movement on WASD would also want dodging to not be WASD.
Yeah thats a fair point on the arrow keys, honestly I have no idea why they have been included in a click to move, top down game but presumably it's with a view to further develop the system in future. I don't think for a single second that you are intended to move with the arrow keys while aiming with the mouse. My only suggestion is that maybe its been added to enable some form of early controller emulators etc for testing?
Re the frequency of dodge, i'd suggest that i'm using them about once every 3-5 seconds. While I appreciate others might feel its not something that particularly benefits them and their play style. But I would argue that it's a reactionary move, it should be instantly accessible whenever needed. So having it under your fingers at all times, for me at least seems the right choice.
The point that I was making was that most people make the argument that WASD doesn't provide enough accuracy in terms of being able to dodge whereas they feel it would be perfectly adequate to continually navigate a map, even with key combining I feel 8 directions on games like this is quite awkward but I accept for many it's manageable.
My other justification for not wanting mouse orientated dodge is that I can mouse over a target while dodging their attacks frequently and maintain constant targeting on them as well as minimal hand movement from either hand, basically none because i'm using wasd to dodge. On the flip side if I wanted to do the same fight with a mouse orientated dodge my right (mouse) wrist would be going "apeshit" while constantly trying to change direction to dodge every 2-3 seconds for a melee enemy and then returning to target them... Something like this would be the end result of a 10 second fight.
Basically worried about RSI... not even joking :D
Re: confusing forum
I'm pretty sure what OP means is that all the forum topics are simply thrown at the viewer in one unsorted mess, rather than being neatly divided into sub sections that have to be looked at separately instead.
The problem with "a little confusing at first but easy once figured out" is that a lot of people just won't bother finding out and instead eschew the forums as a whole if they look like an unorganized mess. My first reflex upon opening the forum was to just not bother, but since there is no steam discussion (which would be an example for a more organized forum that's intuitive to look around) there was nowhere else to turn to with my grievances.
Pretty much that-spot on.
Everything about it is confusing to me. It did took quite some time for me to figure it out, but even that was done simply because there was no Steam discussion forums.
And even after figuring this community board out, I still had rug pulled from beneath my feet by it, because of reversed posting order. I'm used to regular forums, where posts are posted on first come-first served basis. The newer the post is-the lower it is located, allowing to read through older posts first, allowing to, eventually, catching up to the thread.
Here, it took me reading everything, only to realize I was, in fact, reading in reverse order, reaching your post last.
And how do I even multi-quote here?! I want to reply to several people at once, and I want it to be a unified, orderly post, but I can't!
My complaint is that both dodge and directional buttons should be bound to the same buttons. That way, both are easily accessible and are available on-demand.
Fortunately for me, I can achieve that result through macro programming of my keyboard, but it's far from ideal solution and I'd rather the game support such option by itself.
My question is though that having aiming (which = movement) on the same keys as dodge does the opposite of making it accessible in the case of mouse to movement. I do however agree with you that if WASD is used for movement then it does make sense to have WASD also as dodge because there really is no other option.
If people want it then hopefully the devs find a way to implement it and make everyone happy - But specific to the request of click based dodging I just want to know the reasoning behind wanting it as I can only see it as leading to a completely over worked right hand which would have to dramatically increase it's movement and click rate (with a click to dodge feature) leaving the left hand with only 2-3 situational keys (Heal/Grenade/1/2). In fact with a 6+ button mouse you could then play the entire game with your right hand if this were the case.
TLDR - I agree with you WASD + Key request for dodge / Still don't understand the mouse+key request for dodge.
Yeah thats a fair point on the arrow keys, honestly I have no idea why they have been included in a click to move, top down game but presumably it's with a view to further develop the system in future. I don't think for a single second that you are intended to move with the arrow keys while aiming with the mouse. My only suggestion is that maybe its been added to enable some form of early controller emulators etc for testing?
Re the frequency of dodge, i'd suggest that i'm using them about once every 3-5 seconds. While I appreciate others might feel its not something that particularly benefits them and their play style. But I would argue that it's a reactionary move, it should be instantly accessible whenever needed. So having it under your fingers at all times, for me at least seems the right choice.
The point that I was making was that most people make the argument that WASD doesn't provide enough accuracy in terms of being able to dodge whereas they feel it would be perfectly adequate to continually navigate a map, even with key combining I feel 8 directions on games like this is quite awkward but I accept for many it's manageable.
My other justification for not wanting mouse orientated dodge is that I can mouse over a target while dodging their attacks frequently and maintain constant targeting on them as well as minimal hand movement from either hand, basically none because i'm using wasd to dodge. On the flip side if I wanted to do the same fight with a mouse orientated dodge my right (mouse) wrist would be going "apeshit" while constantly trying to change direction to dodge every 2-3 seconds for a melee enemy and then returning to target them... Something like this would be the end result of a 10 second fight.
Basically worried about RSI... not even joking :D
"Yeah thats a fair point on the arrow keys, honestly I have no idea why they have been included in a click to move, top down game but presumably it's with a view to further develop the system in future. I don't think for a single second that you are intended to move with the arrow keys while aiming with the mouse. My only suggestion is that maybe its been added to enable some form of early controller emulators etc for testing? "
I don't know about that-gameplay feels far more smooth and natural, when controlling character movement with keyboard and it's not really anything new. Another ARPG game does a great job at that, called Victor Vran. it also has your abilities tied to your gear, a lot like Martyr. Of course, it also has polished jumping mechanics that offers platformer-like experience, puzzle solving and even usable in combat. In short, it feels like it belongs there and not something shoehorned in.
"Re the frequency of dodge, i'd suggest that i'm using them about once every 3-5 seconds. While I appreciate others might feel its not something that particularly benefits them and their play style. But I would argue that it's a reactionary move, it should be instantly accessible whenever needed. So having it under your fingers at all times, for me at least seems the right choice."
And I fully agree with you on importance of dodge. It trully is irrelevant how often does one uses it, but what does matters is how fast and acurately can it be activated for that one time your life depends on it. And which is why it should be right under your fingers, at all times.
Which may not be a problem for you, in case you prefer to control your character like you would in standard ARPG hack&slash-just mouse click whenever you need to go and have your dodge buttons on WASD for those,"oh snap..." moments.
However, if you are like me, and you enjoy using kayboard for character movement control, while using mouse for aiming(twinstick shooter), then inability to combine keys for achieving quick dodge reaction is a major problem.
Now, I'm not saying devs should pick one side and stick to it, I'm just saying that if they wish for diversity, there are easier, standardised methods of achieving such effects. Ofcourse, once again, allowing us to have keys combination in key binding options would solve all the problems.
"The point that I was making was that most people make the argument that WASD doesn't provide enough accuracy in terms of being able to dodge whereas they feel it would be perfectly adequate to continually navigate a map, even with key combining I feel 8 directions on games like this is quite awkward but I accept for many it's manageable."
I don't know who those people are, but such point of view is a bit ridiculous. This game only allows dodging in four directions, therefore, eight direction dodging is simply a moot point.
"My other justification for not wanting mouse orientated dodge is that I can mouse over a target while dodging their attacks frequently and maintain constant targeting on them as well as minimal hand movement from either hand, basically none because i'm using wasd to dodge. On the flip side if I wanted to do the same fight with a mouse orientated dodge my right (mouse) wrist would be going "apeshit" while constantly trying to change direction to dodge every 2-3 seconds for a melee enemy and then returning to target them... Something like this would be the end result of a 10 second fight. "
Believe me, I'm not asking for mouse oriented dodge, either(I don't even know where that came from).
i've seen it requested several times over the past week, seems I may have misread your ideal setup so apologies for tarnishing you with the same brush :D
Thank you for your forum-like feedbacks & patience guys!
We're working on a lot of new UX-friendly features in the background and quite a few of these listed UX problems are on the web team's development todo-list.
Also, current community build is not mobile friendly. Scrolling through mobile phone or touch screen is a torture, because you can't hold your finger on the screen, while sliding it up/down. No, you have to lightly tap it up/down over and over again, otherwise the screen won't move. And even then-it's gonna move bit by bit, making reading your community pages through mobile phone an enormously time consuming task.
To make matters worse, most of mobile phone's screen is occupied with username+picture part of the post, leaving only few spaces for the actual message, which in turn makes one message drag itself down over a great distance. Couple that with earlier scrolling issue and we got ourselves a real problem.
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One more thing regarding key bindings, in-game. Even though the gama allows a combination input during game options screen, it has no respect towards those and just reads the first key out of combination.
It's a known issue, yes.
The tablet & mobile friendly (responsive) Layout & UI is coming after the aforementioned UX updates (as you can see, our hub is currently in BETA-state, which means it's unpolished, not yet finished : )
Set this current order state as My default.