Understanding Criticals in 40K: Inquisitor

9

Recently, I've had a number of questions about how criticals work, and while I'd had plots for crit strength vs. crit damage for a while, I thought I'd take some time to add a better introductory description.

Hopefully this helps some folks out there. Enjoy!

https://mome-borogove.github.io/40K-crit-damage/

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Understanding Criticals in 40K: Inquisitor
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2 years 213 days ago

Also, I would love to hear about the "many" incorrect things I've said.

This comment was edited 2 years 213 days ago by treecargarage
2 years 213 days ago
Posted by Borogove 2 years 213 days ago

Tree, sometimes I really can't tell if you're trolling or not.

You've made several cases about "how things work" both here and on discord (before you were banned), and many are simply incorrect. Your claims about crits, dots, and damage scaling are mostly based on conjecture, not experiment. "I can't explain X, so you can't explain X" is not a compelling argument, especially when people have tried to explain X to you. For instance, a few days ago, you spent a good 30 minutes trying to convince a new player to re-work their gear to take advantage of Spontaneous Combustion on a physical weapon, before being told that's not how the skill operates. You had just assumed it worked the other way.

I respect your interest in trying to pull back the veil on game mechanics, but I would appreciate it if you took a bit more time to try to understand the material available to you before making claims.

"Critical hits with energy and heat weapons burn the target."
The Grav-Gun is an energy weapon. Blame Nerfcore for stuff not working as described, not me.
Also, I spent about 30 seconds telling him to try that. Key word, try. Nerfcore's descriptions are not the greatest, so it's best to see if what they say actually works.

As for your crit formula, tell me again how I got variable damage crits when I had maxed out my crit strength...

2 years 213 days ago
Posted by treecargarage 2 years 213 days ago

Lastly, I want to say that your chart is most likely wrong.

I had a vid I uploaded months back.
In it, I was shooting at invulnerable enemies (a bug that has existed forever now), and the damage numbers were being displayed (because that's how I roll).
In this video, I was doing a lot of 60K crits, but I also managed to crit once or twice for 200K+.
My crit strength was 106+ (hitting the last breakpoint), and my crit chance was 80%+.
Please explain to me how I can go from 20/30/60K crits to 200K crits using the method you described above.
The RNG is only for crit strength, which I had already maxed. My crits should have ALL been hitting for the same damage.

Tree, sometimes I really can't tell if you're trolling or not.

You've made several cases about "how things work" both here and on discord (before you were banned), and many are simply incorrect. Your claims about crits, dots, and damage scaling are mostly based on conjecture, not experiment. "I can't explain X, so you can't explain X" is not a compelling argument, especially when people have tried to explain X to you. For instance, a few days ago, you spent a good 30 minutes trying to convince a new player to re-work their gear to take advantage of Spontaneous Combustion on a physical weapon, before being told that's not how the skill operates. You had just assumed it worked the other way.

I respect your interest in trying to pull back the veil on game mechanics, but I would appreciate it if you took a bit more time to try to understand the material available to you before making claims.

2 years 213 days ago
+1
Posted by BYCROM 2 years 213 days ago
So the break points shifted from 106+ to 151+ at highest Tier.  Are you sure about the '+' %crit damage on gear  though? I recall  in an old posting developerst  said %crit damage on gear is multiplicative. 

The breakpoints were changed in the season patch (the patch notes have it as "Changed the Critical Strength value thresholds"). The rationale was that it was too easy to cap out crit strength without much investment.

I'm fairly sure about the crit damage %. First, the mechanism I'm describing lines up accurately with the crit model that Neocore uses internally to describe crit balance, and it was developed independently, so that's a strong indicator. (Also, in discussions, they believe it works this way.) Second, I'm pretty sure crit damage as a separate multiplicative factor is *not* the mechanism, for two reasons: (1) the damage component of crit damage on gear would be *incredibly* powerful, outpacing basically every other stat there is, and it isn't quite that good; and (2) crit damage would scale independently from crit strength, and testing shows they definitely interact. So 

I appreciate the post you linked (makes this discussion easier), but there's a couple of ambiguities in there that I think are causing the confusion. First, the phrase "critical damage" is ambiguous. This can describe "the overall damage done by a critical hit", or it can refer to the critical_damage_bonus stat on gear and skills, or it can refer to the initial multiplier computed after looking up the random number-modified critical strength value. This makes talking about criticals (whether asking *or* answering a question) easy to confuse. Second, there's some inaccuracies in that post that make me believe it was a bit hasty in being answered. For instance, critical hit strength is never applied to base damage---it's added to a random number and used as an index. The post is not devoid of meaning, though: the critical damage stat *does* end up directly multiplying the normal damage done, it's just that the critical damage value from gear is additive with the initial critical multiplier derived from the critical strength table; and critical strength calculations are indeed done before normal damage is multiplied to get your overall critical hit damage, it's just calculated slightly different. So I think what's going on here is ambiguity leading to miscommunication leading to assumed-correctness, all compounded by the demands of a community rep and the limited communication bandwidth of Internet forums.

Hope this helps shed a bit of light on things!

2 years 213 days ago

Lastly, I want to say that your chart is most likely wrong.

I had a vid I uploaded months back.
In it, I was shooting at invulnerable enemies (a bug that has existed forever now), and the damage numbers were being displayed (because that's how I roll).
In this video, I was doing a lot of 60K crits, but I also managed to crit once or twice for 200K+.
My crit strength was 106+ (hitting the last breakpoint), and my crit chance was 80%+.
Please explain to me how I can go from 20/30/60K crits to 200K crits using the method you described above.
The RNG is only for crit strength, which I had already maxed. My crits should have ALL been hitting for the same damage.

This comment was edited 2 years 213 days ago by treecargarage
2 years 213 days ago

Also, why would Nerfcore mix RNG with crit chance? In order to crit, you either need to launch a massive AOE attack that hits everywhere, thereby increasing the probability that your attack will hit something critical, or you need to aim carefully and hit something critical. If it's the former, then yeah, an RNG mechanic might make (jk, it doesn't, but I'm being "nice" for the sake of argument) sense, since some fragment of, say, a grenade, could hit an enemy harder than others. But with a sniper rifle, an RNG mechanic makes no sense since you're targetting a very specific spot, and so the strength would be relatively constant.


I guess Nerfcore's "special" mechanics are what gives this amazing game its personality.

This comment was edited 2 years 213 days ago by treecargarage
2 years 213 days ago

So basically, you have base 50 crit strength because the game randomly rolls a 1-100 for you...
This is one of the most retarded crit systems I've ever seen...jk...it is THE most retarded crit system I've ever seen.

This comment was edited 2 years 213 days ago by treecargarage
2 years 213 days ago

I was refering to this post: https://steamcommunity.com/app/527430/discussions/0/1645418448920432094/

2 years 213 days ago
So the break points shifted from 106+ to 151+ at highest Tier.  Are you sure about the '+' %crit damage on gear  though? I recall  in an old posting developerst  said %crit damage on gear is multiplicative.