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- Time might be the heaviest weapon to wield
Time might be the heaviest weapon to wield
Warhammer 40K DiscussionLet me be blunt and give my conclusion first, I'll then present my subjective reasoning for this conclusion.
Conclusion: the release-date is too early, and will risk producing a less desirable outcome, compared to the expected resulting game, if more time was added.
I am aware that such a conclusion is so self-evident, i.e. more time used better things get, is not actually being denied by anyone here. (That I have read atleast.) So I will present the questions I asked myself about this topic and the "answer" I came too.
1) Is there a problem with such a early release of a game I really want to play?
I think there is because, as Neocore themselves have mentioned, producing new steam-build when you have multiple things being edited/added etc. it becomes a massive workload in itself to produce said steam-builds so close to launch.
2) Are the steam-builds really that important when the feedback we have gotten is that it is too time-consuming before launch?
I believe they are. This due to the different factors that all need to come together when the product is released. So the crafting needs work in many aspects, so does the actual back-end code of several features like co-op and chat just to name some things. In addition to this, Neocore has shown us new content, take the Knight as example here, and will presumably implemented this by launch. With so many adjustments being made to what we already have, then adding new features and content. Which may or may not need adjustments, and at the same time open the proverbial floodgates of players expecting a released game. So I hold the opinion that steambuild these features, atleast in concept, because I doubt Neocore has the capacity to stress-test and bug-hunt on a equally effective scale as the founding has done. No I am not saying Neocore dosen't do good work, but a man/woman can only work so many hours in a day. And I do believe they are working with the focus of a moderatii with a MIU.
But if one adds a chapter of W40K geeks, [insert funny chapter name here], and suddenly there are allot more hours of help being added to the released game.
3)Still Neocore have stated that just because the game is released dosen't mean they'll stop working on it, so whats the big deal?
Well, for the aformentioned chapter of W40K geeks, a.k.a. the founders, we probably won't give up on the game IF it is somewhat buggy or the like at launch. But I think we can all agree that when the game launches and people start trying out the game they will actually want to continue playing it. That goes double for the people who are not familiar with W40K, but just saw a cool looking game they wanted to have fun with. If those players get hit by a bug-infestation the size of a hive-fleet, I have concerns for what the future of this game might be. Because I really, really want this to be as good as I think I can be, and as we know from other experiences from Steam; that if some hundres of reviews condemn your product to the warp, well then that usually translates into less fun for those of us that like the game.
So my conclusion then becomes the release-date is too early, and will risk producing a less desirable outcome, compared to the expected resulting game, if more time was added. So I would like if they extended the deadline by an amount they could be satisfied with. I can wait.
I hasten to point out that more time added would include Neocore making more steam-builds. Not for our amusement, but because there are many of us that are willing to help allot as long as we are given the best practical odds of getting a fun game. And since there is still allot of tweaking, not to mention the difference between 20 players testing something compared to 200-1000(?), is big. And no, I do not know how many people actually are founders, which opens up another point of view: all I have just written might be rubbish/wrong/defeatist. I hope its wrong. But I fear that its not wrong.
I would love to get some comments from you fellow founders. Disagreements in debates I have no trouble with, as long as we attack the logic and not the person.
Sincerly,
Vlricus von Kronstadt
"Nothing worthwhile is done without challenge, best to overcome it before plans are enacted."
- Sigismund, first High Marshal of the Black Templars
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@AIRSICK HYDRA and all who have contributed in this topic:
I made this post with honest intentions and hope of a good debate. The debate was great, and the opinion exchange is something I got allot out off.
But AirSick Hydra really pointed out the futility of having this debate now. And I agree. At the very least, I should have posted this at the moment the release-date was announced, but even that would probably have been counter-productive since by then the commitment to go ahead has already been approved.
That suddenly turns this topic into a slandering of Neocore, and their so far superb product and forthcomingness in regards to information and player question. Me fueling distrust and sceptisism, was words before thought. Such was not my intent.
This is not a critisism of anyone who added their opinion here, but rather a gross backfire of my intentions compared to what this topic now seems like.
So let me make this clear: I trust Neocore will deliver when and what they say they will. I deeply respect their hardwork, which has gotten us this far. And by the Emperor, if they have gotten this far, I will put my faith in that they will see this through to the end with flying colors.
The Emperor Protects.
Sincerly,
Vlricus von Kronstadt
I must retract this comment. My fear of saysing something offensive overshadowed the very real point I tried to make in the post before the one I am quoting. And yes I do blame someone for that; me!
I know how douchy it is to write it after the fact but at 09.june.2018, the very problem I was concerned about has come to full fluhrision. (Its a word in Belarus.Maybe.)
The shitstorm on Steam was suprisingly smaller the I had expected so there is that, but many, many problem on release-date is something that can be fixed, but you only every get one chance to make a first impression.
The Game cost, roughly converted from my currency, 55dollars. Thats allot to pay for a game that has chat turned off on launch and numerous other problem. And as far as I know, there a no fatale design-flaws in the game that it terminates or goes corrupt. It simply is not finished with its polish.
That being said, I write this not so much, but a little bit, to give a frindly complaint to Neocore. But its more for the shame I feel for not having defended the point I knew to be right.
Conclusion: this was, is and will be a good game. But I fear we have lost some potenial cabal-mates over trivial glitches. We will endure. But we must also be realitstic.
Sincerly,
Vlricus von Kronstadt
@AIRSICK HYDRA and all who have contributed in this topic:
I made this post with honest intentions and hope of a good debate. The debate was great, and the opinion exchange is something I got allot out off.
But AirSick Hydra really pointed out the futility of having this debate now. And I agree. At the very least, I should have posted this at the moment the release-date was announced, but even that would probably have been counter-productive since by then the commitment to go ahead has already been approved.
That suddenly turns this topic into a slandering of Neocore, and their so far superb product and forthcomingness in regards to information and player question. Me fueling distrust and sceptisism, was words before thought. Such was not my intent.
This is not a critisism of anyone who added their opinion here, but rather a gross backfire of my intentions compared to what this topic now seems like.
So let me make this clear: I trust Neocore will deliver when and what they say they will. I deeply respect their hardwork, which has gotten us this far. And by the Emperor, if they have gotten this far, I will put my faith in that they will see this through to the end with flying colors.
The Emperor Protects.
Sincerly,
Vlricus von Kronstadt
Crafting purples and somewhat improving relics shouldn't be all there is, because item-hunt is a powerful motivator to, for example, play 200-300PL large maps with possible miniboss. Such a map doesn't guarantee nothing, but gives a chance for another item-class, with reasonably fixed affixes and 1-2 random ones. I have nothing about crafting helping *a bit* - but it's a vanity item players spend good deal of time to find (some perhaps never getting it).
Otherwise, it's D3 'magic formula' - farm more to be able to farm more efficiently, because nothing substantial is gained except possibility to move some stupid slider a notch up. But if special items allow player to go to some really dangerous places, otherwise unplayable - it is another layer - exploring.
By the way, showing some of them is a perfect teaser for a full game.
Formula which allows player to, after *crafting* items play PL2000, where he meets *exactly* the same opponents who act exactly the same, only with increased Damage and HP isn't a very good motivation, and it should be avoided at all costs - D3 'magic formula' is probably the most criticized flaw.
Reason for comparing D3 (or better D2) with Martyr is that there is no other WH40k aRPG, and it obviously can't be compared with Gothic Armada or how it's called, then only reasonable comparison can come from other aRPGs.
Another thing is there is, apart from large WH40k community, there is aRPG community numbering millions of players...
This is where I think irrelevant's comment is probably bang on the money. Putting a non-perfect game out to launch is a risk vs reward situation. They make a judgement on what the benefit will be in delaying the game further vs the costs. The decision clearly has been that "in their view" any further delay is either not affordable, not possible or not profitable.
We can speculate all we want about money they might loose from bugs at launch. But none of us have access to all of the information here. Their bank accounts being the main one. It's a nice idea to think extra time will always be worth the investment, but if that were actually the case then all companies would be doing it without hesitation.
Also release dates, marketing material, press tours etc are all booked by now. If anything the majority of their marketing budget is going to already be spent (i'm presuming) that's not money they are going to get back if they did choose to delay. Hence i'm certain the date is set, the ball is in motion and no number or level of player concern will dent the forthcoming plans.
@SNAKEFISTIFSO :that reply was ment for you
@ALLERKA: that replay was ment for Snake not you. Real sorry aobut the confusion. ( And I agree with your assessment of the launch)
I really wanted to replay to each of you, but since I am an idiot and don't understand this reply/edit delete things on a post I made myself, I am gonna just adresse all in a single post. Its a wonder I manage to turn on my computer...
So from now on I am just gonna post, instead of replying because being an idiot takes allot of work,
Sincerly,
Vlricus von Kronstadt
Like mentioned: love the sharing of solid data. Maybe I am the only one who didn't know this, but then atleast one more perosn is informed.
I see your point about hidden stats and admit that thats probably not the way to go. But I am still not quite sold on the system as-is, even tough Neocore has yet to show all of it too us.
I regards to launch, I agree with the probable chain of events at the start, but fear that the side-effects are going to be catastrophic for Inquisitor was a community. Two reason I fear this: the Steam-shitstorm and formentioned, but also the longstanding tradition, myself VERY included here, to get super-hyped over a GW product just to be let down. Like I stated earlier, yes some of my sceptisism on early launch surley comes from that, but that dosen't mean my concerns are null and void.
But keep it coming guys. I am learning stuff and meeting new people, so agree or disagree: don't be afraid to point out my failed logic/data.
Sincerly,
Vlricus von Kronstadt
I see your point about hidden stats and admit that thats probably not the way to go. But I am still not quite sold on the system as-is, even tough Neocore has yet to show all of it too us.
I regards to launch, I agree with the probable chain of events at the start, but fear that the side-effects are going to be catastrophic for Inquisitor was a community. Two reason I fear this: the Steam-shitstorm and formentioned, but also the longstanding tradition, myself VERY included here, to get super-hyped over a GW product just to be let down. Like I stated earlier, yes some of my sceptisism on early launch surley comes from that, but that dosen't mean my concerns are null and void.
But keep it coming guys. I am learning stuff and meeting new people, so agree or disagree: don't be afraid to point out my failed logic/data.
Sincerly,
Vlricus von Kronstadt
So if I am wrong on every point, atleast I get to learn something.
Sincerly,
Vlricus von Kronstadt
As for coming out too soon, I think the game's getting there, but largely needs some more polishing to ensure a smooth release. Maybe that'll be part of the big update for launch, I certainly hope so. As I mentioned elsewhere, Steam reviewers are BRUTAL in their expectations for a game, and (reasonable or not) will expect a freshly released game to be just as polished and expansive as a similar game that's already been out for two years. Like Grim Dawn, for example (Yes, I've seen a LOT of people comparing the two games regardless of whether not such a comparison is even fair).
So my concern is unless the launch is flawless, or close to flawless, the game ultimately won't do nearly as well as it otherwise might, because random impatient folks on Steam who don't understand how game development works are going to take a dump all over it. Which, even if that happens, isn't a guaranteed formula for poor sales, but if the review ratio is "Mixed" or worse, that's going to hurt a lot. Although I see the game's sitting at "Mostly Positive" right now, so hopefully it stays there. :D
Didn't take any offence from your post. You focus on the issues so no clarification needed.
But onto the points, first of all Power Level. Now I can be willing to accept it as a number you can see and use. But the issue with Item X a has very many stats but very low PL, versus ITEM Z that has no stats except a high Power Level. It forces you to downgrade if you want better items. That is very counter-intuitive, to me atleast. But if the PL was the sum of all stats, so that higher PL would pretty my guarantee a better item then I am all for it.
The Co-op bit I agree; pluss for everyone getting to play with anyone; minus for the "enhanced-leveling". Another weakpoint is when a level40 account plays with level 5 account, it just feels so... unimmersive (is that a word?), to me. In such cases it would be much cooler if your character was an Imperial guard, visually, so as to underline the massive disproportion in power.
Come to think of it, I would love to play "retinue" type characters in a cabal. But that a whole other matter.
You make yet another good point in your 3rd paragrah that some, myself included, are salty from other W40k games gone very wrong. And I would lie if I didn't admit that much of my specticism comes from such experiences. I would write more but now I must ponder.... you've given me several things to think about. For that I thank you.
As always, everyone is welcome into this debate.
Sincerly,
Vlricus von Kronstadt
While many won't like the power rating system, the developers clearly have a goal in mind for what they want it to achieve. Cross level play. Minimal power creep and frequent encouragement to change item.
Hidden mechanics, on the other hand, have to become known - it's just not fair for a player not to know how much affix or something else that claims +10%-of-that is multiplying or adding, or if some directly influence stat *before* multipliers/additives or *after*. Not knowing makes a false perspective, usually on gears or skilltrees.
Based on previous NeoCore launches, Mighty Snakefist is mild optimist in regard of readiness - there will surely be some whiners which complain about disconnects (and taking D3 as an example, where like everything in aRPG world was done wrongly, the game was also fully unplayable for 2 weeks). Previous titles were decently ready, but whining types with 0.2h playtime left rather rating on Steam...
Didn't take any offence from your post. You focus on the issues so no clarification needed.
But onto the points, first of all Power Level. Now I can be willing to accept it as a number you can see and use. But the issue with Item X a has very many stats but very low PL, versus ITEM Z that has no stats except a high Power Level. It forces you to downgrade if you want better items. That is very counter-intuitive, to me atleast. But if the PL was the sum of all stats, so that higher PL would pretty my guarantee a better item then I am all for it.
The Co-op bit I agree; pluss for everyone getting to play with anyone; minus for the "enhanced-leveling". Another weakpoint is when a level40 account plays with level 5 account, it just feels so... unimmersive (is that a word?), to me. In such cases it would be much cooler if your character was an Imperial guard, visually, so as to underline the massive disproportion in power.
Come to think of it, I would love to play "retinue" type characters in a cabal. But that a whole other matter.
You make yet another good point in your 3rd paragrah that some, myself included, are salty from other W40k games gone very wrong. And I would lie if I didn't admit that much of my specticism comes from such experiences. I would write more but now I must ponder.... you've given me several things to think about. For that I thank you.
As always, everyone is welcome into this debate.
Sincerly,
Vlricus von Kronstadt
1- I love the power level (PR i am guessing you mean). Games like PoE are way to complex to just come home from work,sit down and play. It allows me to just play the game without worrying about the stat's when I want to. The game does a good job of doing it for me. It also allows me to some idea who I am playing with.
2- This game is so different to Any other arpg's in that it allows any one of any lvl/pr or skill to play together. While I very rarely play co-op (except cabal or friends). It is great that it is like the way it is.I played Wow/D3 and PoE for many years and am so sick of you lfg only this, that and the other. Forcing ppl to play something that is not fun for them is bad for any game.
I also feel that every player/Dev. has different wants or needs. Same as every Idea or change has good and bad effects on a game. Players need to think about both these in terms of the whole game, not just themselves. That's where we have to trust Neocore/Dev's in general. If they say that there server is ready to go with our big concerns(they changed a whole system on our feedback) we must trust that. While I am picking up that many 40k players have been burnt by previous games they are not this one, move on and judge thing now.
But really all this is hypothetical as the will be no game changes until launch. I also believe that if it was just on PC game would be out now.
Now to adress Christs first, yes this post is my subjective opinion. And you are correct in pointing out that I make allot of complaints but don't actually bring anything to the table. For that there is no excuse.
That being said, I will point out that part of my OP was that how are we to help improve upon unreleased material? So in that respect I disagree with your chain of thought.
BUT there are problems in-game now that I can try to add something positiv too:
1) powerlevel of items in relation to their actual effectiveness:
I would propose that the powerlevelnumber, both on items and characters, be a hidden stat. Further I would have the items PL be a "sum" of tier-weapon added with the actual stats of it. For the character one could also use points in the skilltree and which class you are to further the calculation. Do I know if this is even plausible? No. But if it is, I like the idea.
2)coop of highly different PL/AL/IL, this should have some boundaries. I am struggeling to come up with exact numbers here, but (accountlevel+inqusitorialevel)x0,5/1,5 from the other players. If pvp is implemented, the same could be used, though I think a dedicated PVP ranking system might be better.
Those are just some suggestions, I am sitting in the sun right now and I am dying so I have to make this quick. As for the waiting, we can agree to disagree.
Irrelewahnt. Financial-concerns are indeed are problem that no amount of bug-testing can work around. But I fear that by yourr same logic, need to make money to survive, which I agree with, I fear the sum of lost income might be larger with a release that get too much bad reviews. So I would argue that very same point but from, well, my point of view.
Feel free to point out any and all the stupid things I argue about. From good discussion comes, hopefully new perspective. Or I learn why I shouldn't be allowed on the internet.
Sincerly,
Vlricus von Kronstadt
The spend years of development time and ressources, have a concole publisher... well what's the biggest and most understandable reason to release the game? Money.
All your points are wel thought about but with that approach developers will develop games to financial ruin because when is a game realy done?
Set this current order state as My default.