I haven't hit the level requirement for Meltas in the new build yet, but they rebalanced plasma weapons to the point where a lot of my pre-update concerns have been rendered invalid. The AP value seems to have been jiggled up and it provides a nice punchy counterpoint to the crowd control shotgun I keep in my second slot (which will eventually turn into a grenade launcher because tee hee boom).

Dey made da beemy deffguns moar shootier!

I also toyed with the Idea of different types of ammo and a more in depth weapon customization. Problem with that is that many weapon skills already assume that you change the ammo type for them anyway.

For Melta, and I suppose Plasma weapons you could have ammo and overheat. Say 10 shots in a Melta canister, and up the AP, 30 in a Plasma cell. Fires slowly enough that you won't hit overheat in left click - start using those fancy abilities and you'll be swapping weapons/cooldown. Reload cancels Overheat, takes ages.

As for the Lasgun, the power packs have between 100 and 150 shots iirc. Have a weapon mod allow us to turn them into Hotshot Lasguns :D Though instead of ammo, you swap barrels out.

So far the biggest problem is your dude in melee doing nothing if you target a mob that is just a mm to far away and body blocked by some other dudes...

What I found most amusing about the gear-skill based style is it's fairly close to a design document I wrote up a few years ago for a power-armor based open world ARPG (down to being able to build your own base, and having passives in place of actives for character progression, it's a grand coincidence)--so I paid attention to what skills had what effects to see how they were balanced up, but will need far more time with the systems to see how Neocore built them (as opposed to how I imagined the setup working in my design doc). It's rather gratifying to see that not only can it be done, it can be done enjoyably.

B would be, I think, my largest issue. Most of the attacks for the plasma weapons (save the Maximal pieplate) should have armor pen natively; the same goes for the melta-weapons. So the issue isn't insurmountable--for that matter I plan on binging today,  so I can see if their weapon rebalancing pass has fixed these fairly minor (in the grand scheme of things) quibbles at tiers where the heavy plasma and melta weapons are unlocked.

For me what I think is the primary issue with these weapons is that 

a) Most players aren't aware which moves have the Pen attribute and just spam - loosing the potential benefit. 

b) Not enough of "Pen based weapons" like a plasma rifle - actually have pen on them. Usually only 1-2 of the 4 attacks. 

c) If you do have a pen weapon - Stacking + damage on Pen attack = Fairly notable boost to damage 

Some mish mash of the above.

It's a fun thought exercise to have discussions about play like this, honestly; and quite frequently the in-depth discussions and breakdowns of why a mechanic feels off can be far more valuable than just a post saying "[insert weapon] is underpowered, please buff".

You raise a good point there. Perhaps it would be better that I suggest lowering the rate of fire a smidge and lengthening the cooling process on overheat to make up for higher damage/AP potential... I need to binge current build to see if they've changed, but as of last build plasma and melta weapons just didn't feel like the MEQ-killers they should be.

Current build, the lasgun's Hot Shot feels odd, as well. I'm used to hot-shot laspacks generally being bonus AP, rather than granting a channeled beam (which IMO, might be better served giving us some sweet sweet volkite weapons) so it's... different.

Now, I will say that the new build, I'm changing weapons more frequently--the lasgun is serving me quite well (which is surprising given my preference for boltguns) and has taken the primary slot on my Heavy's belt with the shotgun in reserve (I wouldn't mind "borrowing" the pretty Elysian drop trooper bullpup lasgun, and one of their drum-fed automatic shotguns for backup even if it was just a mechanically identical skin), while in the previous build I simply ignored my secondary until I got a heavy flamer after both the plasma cannon and multi-melta proved... disappointing in the eyes of the Emperor.

Only tangentially related... the plasma pistol I picked up tonight bears a suspicious resemblance to that carried by the fugitive Cypher of the [REDACTED] Chapter. I'm starting to think that our supply clerk is a Blood Raven in disguise, which is made more plausible given the pretty "easy" access to grav-weapons. Blood Magpies, ahoy!

Feedback is indeed always useful. You probably noticed that as much as I love giving feedback, I like discussing it even more. Keep doing what you are doing, i'm only trying to pick your brain and exhaust ideas.  

With re to making all heat weapons ammo based, wouldn't that again just detract from the variety of resource management systems available to the player? Granted it's nothing earth shattering but it at least gives a slightly different feel to the current types. Lowering a Meltas ROF and boosting it's damage on a reload system would make it pretty much a yellow sniper rifle in terms of function and more importantly in terms of "feel".

Should you lower the ROF even more and give it a greater armor bypass then you end up with a weapon incapable of being wielded as a main hand and reserved for special occasions only - which is likely something that was thought of in game design - but with a dual weapon system I honestly believe they wanted to pitch for 2 different usable weapons for if the player gets bored, each with a modest advantage.

To me it boils down to the purpose of changing weapons, is it being done to improve the game or is it being done to fit with lore because while there are plenty of argument in the fluff to make these weapons work on an ammo basis, isn't this just another case of making something more lore fluffy for the sake of fitting in with in with a fictional universe - while being more limiting to the actual player? 

I am aware of the fluff behind the newer plasma gun. Point is that my plague marine (and by extension all plasma gun toting plague marines on the tabletop) with them falls under the new rules too. It could be a simple fact that they have all stolen/found a newer one, but I'm not aware of that being canonical. The fluff changes and I just feel that to base all ones criticisms based upon it (not directing this comment at you Brother Lazarus) might not be the correct approach to create an enjoyable ARPG experience.

I fully back you (and the community here) making constructive criticism towards this game. I know I didn't spend my money at this stage to not provide feedback to the development team. I want this thing to equally succeed both in being an enjoyable ARPG experience and a 40k experience. That said it just seems a bit like pushing a boulder up a hill for me to give that feedback when a large content patch is in the winds.

Per the plasma weapon damage rule, it was adapted brilliantly in the group RPG products (originally offered by GW, and then later written in full by FFG). You had, depending on quality of the weapon, a % band of self-damage which, if you were smart enough to be wearing armor (and as a Throne agent you practically lived in armor), would be somewhat mitigated and not lethal (or even bypassing your full damage threshold) but enough to be problematic and highlight the lore regarding the plasma weapons being temperamental, barely understood pieces of technology.

The melta itself I would find would do better being changed to an ammunition magazine similar to SP weapons rather than overheat, a suitably long reload time, and use that to offset the higher damage vs. armor while removing the pieplate. While plasma weapons have always had some form of setting allowing an area of effect splash, only one Melta weapon has and it's a specialized Hellhound variant (vehicle mounted). With grenade launchers, flamers, bolters, plasma guns, and even sniper rifles offering an area of effect splash, there's a decent argument to be made for tuning the meltas into a more specialist weapon while leaving other equipment just as viable (longer ranged, deeper ammo pool, etc) in the long run.

Then again, I'd also rather see lasguns using magazines as intended as well--the current ones are closer to the old Hellguns as opposed to the high-capacity clip (in this case a more appropriate term than magazine, a lasgun can't fire without the pack, but that's nitpicking). Outside of in-universe propaganda, the reason lasguns are so prolific is just that three to five charge packs offers the same volume of fire as dozens of solid projectile magazines, are easier to standardize, are simpler to produce (a lolwut at GW there, I've built rifles and they're not anywhere near that level of complexity).

Notably, and relevant to this back and forth we're having, I've found more success with the heavy flamer against... everything... than the multi-melta I was carrying prior. This is part of my "things need to be adjusted and tweaked a bit". The bolters are satisfying (even if someone over-bored the HB so far that rounds are just tumbling out of the barrel in random directions far from point of aim), the autoguns are just as wimpy and easy to use as expected, even the lasguns (save the charge pack thing) are about what I'd expect.

I'm having plenty of fun with the alpha, but feedback is definitely required--not just from fresh blood and ARPG veterans, but filthy old 40k grognards too. A little criticism and feedback will go a long way, especially now when reviewbombers will go "ZOMG this ONE THING is wrong WHOLE GAME IS NOT RECOMMENDED AND A SCAM!". Some of my feedback is coming from the perspective of a designer and not gamer, as well. I've had to juggle mechanics myself, and it can be difficult to get spot on. I'm pretty sure they can accomplish it, but not without help from the fans.

@Margrave: that's a new one that has more to do with that tech-adept crawling out of his mother's basement and finally Getting Stuff Done as per Rowboat Girlyman's orders (hooray Ward's Mary Sue fixation on the Ultramarines being TEH BEST EVUR never dying) than anything else. The "new" M41 plasma weapons issued are supposedly built using his expertise, just like the bolt rifles and better power armor the Primaris goons are toting about. 30k and pre-M41-set stuff still retains the Gets Hot (you can asplod!) rule.

As an aside that has nothing to do with any part of this discussion but fluff... I was given a Common grav-gun as a mission reward last night and got a chuckle. What's next, vendor-grade volkite weapons? I gotta get my Inquisitor to pull some strings and ship that off to my Dark Angels army, they could use some nicer wargear.

If you want abilities to change then that'll be perks. It's kinda confusing but this is kinda how inq relates to other games.

Inquisitor skill points = Most game attribute points

Inquisitor gear level = Most games character level

Inquisitor Perks = Most games legendary gear / Skill modification

so the ability to customise abilities and play style will be there.. just not via the skill tree :D - welcome to a new way of doing things!

While I do love me some 40k lore. At the end of the day I need to ask if I'd rather have a fun game set in the 40k universe, or a game that was fluffy as hell but more restricting. Given that this is an ARPG and that the primary means of build diversity is wargear loadout based (as far as I can tell at this juncture). I prefer the former with its broader selection of options. I do agree that a fluffy framework should be maintained (i.e. meta should be better versus armor than a autogun), but not to the detriment of an enjoyable experience. Oh and 8th edition says that plasma gun can't blowup on you if you don't supercharge it... so hooray lore always changing?

Certainly understand how these things seem attractive. A weapon with low ammo count and high damage is pretty standard in some genres and fun to play with. FPS most notably and yes even RPG. But for a top down ARPG with a mission based weapon selection system - I think it would be limiting to the player and their choice. The amount of viable main hand weapons would be reduced by a large portion because these heavy weapons would be "too" specialized to cope with standard content. But they would become mandatory for anti armor once the difficulty is increased. Resulting in the dual weapon system now being a Mainhand / Anti tank weapon scenario. I think it's fair to ask for more slow ROF high damage vs high ROF low damage, but once you start wanting Anti-Certain enemies then you are taking the viable weapon combinations from the 100's of thousands to a tiny fraction of this and for what benefit? To feel more like the board game? What works for most ARPG's is a + Damage vs elite. Which is really what anti armor is comparable to. In these situations its normally 30-50%, as we have now. 

The strength of the current setup while not perfect and appreciating that some weapons don't need adjustments, is that by having weapon specialization brought more towards a 30-50% damage range there is far greater control on balance and far more flexibility in terms of choice to the player. Perhaps an argument to be made for reducing the rate of fire a little and increasing damage accordingly but with extreme caution.... Otherwise little timmy who's favorite combo in mission is a Chain-sword and bolt pistol, with a heavy flamer on his backpack will realise he has already failed in life because he didn't take one of these specific anti tank weapons. If the developers had a system where every character had 4 weapons like Gears of War and could always carry 1x "heavy" then sure  everyone can use their chosen special weapon for these certain fights. If that is the plan then it's also fine to make mainhand weapons do 0 damage to these enemies and that system would work. But with a dual weapon set and skill system that many will feel is already limited, I worry it would be far too constricting. 

On the subject though of having random damage to the player as a means to balance a weapon, that's ok in the board game where you have a squad and can afford to loose a player and maybe some other situations. But in clutch situations having a RNG feature kill your player / character during a mission....  Sure 1% might enjoy that feature and find it amusing. For the majority though, infuriating. Abilities that cost life in ARPGs typically or usually HAVE to be predictable to avoid simple outrage.  

I'm something of a snarky Throne Agent, my replies are frequently terse or sarcastic.

I spent a lot of time watching specialist titles die (for example, the debacle that was the "rebalancing" that wrecked a decade of delicate work in Battlefleet Gothic when they made Armada, the first beta was fine, but players whinged enough that things were rebalanced to the point of worthless, Wardian-level monobuild), so any developer that I back will get a lot of feedback--and a lot of it will be things like "this isn't how this is supposed to work, even in the desperate scale of the RPGs".

Meltaguns are tank-killer weapons, and they're balanced in every non-tabletop form (be it RPG or novelization) by the fact that they carry barely any ammunition and are short-ranged. I already have to soak up prodigious amounts of damage to use this meltagun, so having it deal less damage and ignore less armor than my starting autogun cries out for a balancing pass and another look at what makes the various weapons tick.

Likewise, the plasma weapons all have (and retain) Gets Hot!, which explicitly deals damage to the bearer on an unlucky roll--not a heat gauge, but "whoops your attack just caused you to take a ton of heat damage". A self-balancing thing, again, that could have been retained without disrupting balance too heavily. People would have complained, but those generally haven't had to deal with a plasma cannon blowing up half a squad and soldiering on, either; and it would have remained a MEQ-killer as intended rather than a (weirdly) horde-killer as it appears to be now.

Seeing a Ratling sniper rifle absolutely mulch a Dreadnought, whilst the specialist weapon that was built to crack tanks tickles it, is very disruptive for play as an avid 40k fan. I can forgive the Exitus rifle, with those nasty Turbo-Penetrators, but... some of the balance is just wrong for the setting. I know Neocore can handle it, they did well with Van Helsing.

Thank you for clarifying several times, the difference between a Boltgun and a Bolt Pistol. Noted.

Re to your second point I think we have to consider that the lore is pasted directly into game.. such as if the  Melta / Plasma Cannons are killing Dreads in vastly fewer shots, then you end up with a very poor video game. For every ounce of power you give the inquisitor, you take away that much from the enemy.

The books were written afterall to capture imagination. Not really with direct intention to make  a viable video game. While it's somewhat passable to get a lucky hit in the board game and kill a Dreadnaught, that's somewhat more forgivable because there is an element of chance involved with the dice.

But in a video game enemies of a certain mass need to last X amount of time, even when faced with the appropriate weapon, otherwise it falls outside of the spectrum of being a memorable experience and into the realms of just anti climactic and trivial. Although i'm not sure if working as intended the +30/50% damage bonus seems to be some form of fair middle ground?

- think this is all a little off topic tho :D

That would be relevant... if I hadn't equipped a boltgun. Not a bolt pistol, a boltgun.

I replaced the terrible autogun with a mastercrafted bolter (again, not pistol). After the mission I checked and the game had actually outright eaten the boltgun, so that was five thousand thrones down the drain. Hasn't happened to the melta yet (though the melta, like the plascannon, is weirdly pitiful vs. armor which weird considering the fact that a few guardsmen with meltas can paste a Baneblade) but I'm keeping my eye on it.

FYI sliding around the map was caused by equipping 1h 1h combo's that had no animation :) it's been documented for some time. Will be fixed in teh next patch as the pistol sword / shield combo will finally make its debut. Ugh. 

Except these are Nurgle toxins, and even the Wardian Heresy lore is full of examples of the Plaguefather's works completely bypassing protections because "lulz I use warp magic!"

I think some more (minor) quibbles should be pointed towards some of the mechanics-choice hiccups at the moment, like the fact that the heavy bolter sprays like the 40k cover-shooters, as opposed to the (relatively) accurate HB from the crunch. And the plasma cannon being somewhat useless against armor (at least the models I've used, which -should- positively mulch traitor marines). The tech-magi in the Caligiri sector really should be cycled for servitors and replaced with holy Magi from Mars, because they've clearly forgotten their works. Also, the odd bug where equipping certain weapons won't actually work in-mission, so my second slot results in no animation and sliding around the map.

To the OP: wrong, wrong, wrong wrong wrong WRONG. You need to dig past the Wardian Heresy era lore, and CS Goto trash, to see the full scope of who can be raised to the status of Inquisitor. These may not be Inquisitor Lord material, but they are most certainly capable of rising above the level of Acolyte to the rank of full Inquisitor. Some of the very first (chronologically speaking) Inquisitors were former agents of the Officio Assassinorum, so it's not only not unheard of in fluff, it's fairly valid in terms of canon.

You should probably read some novels before you come in and make matter of fact statements about this sort of thing.

There are plenty of examples of Inquisitors coming from previous backgrounds. Not to mention actual pen and paper rules from Dark Heresy that also say things counter to your point.

With Chaos within and without, the Inquisition will draw from any potential source...even including the higher ranks of the Guard and the Arbites. They are USUALLY trained from a young age, but purity of service to the Emperor will draw their gaze pretty quickly.

Id be pretty happy if we got a retinue though. Maybe having a Deathwatch marine would make mowing down 5 CSM in one room a little easier to swallow.

a good point but then  you need to take into account that 9/10ths of the character models don't wear masks or helmets. 

Yes, the gas traps can be very easily avoided, because the doors have a very distinctive look. For some, we can just step through the door and back again before the door is fully closed.

Other rooms contain those tanks with red fluid, which is very explosive, and they can be detonated when the enemies teleport in. Once you know how the traps work, they are easy.

Actually I think the gas is nonsense, concerning lore. Assassins wear Synskin and have filtration gear in their throat and a Crusader wears power armor which is normally a sealed suit. So the gas should not do anything at all to our characters...

Maybe they could just change what the stuff is, that oozes into the room, like an intrusion of the immaterium. That I could believe to be damaging to persons that should be immune to poison gas... ;-)

Correct, but a little more variation and imagination would be useful. At present 9/10th's of these encounters are so predictable to the point they are entirely avoidable and very "meh". Gas traps excluded, which are "ugh". Neocore said there would be more "scripts" added for more variety so I expect this will do the job of scratching this itch.

Yeah, but that happens already, no ? Walk into a room, trip the alarm, the door locks, poison gas gets released and multiple enemies spawn in all around you. I'm I wrong ?

Well there is a "retinue" placeholder on the ship. Not wanting to toot my own horn but I did an "educated guess" video on it. It's somewhere between a companion system and a mini game I expect. 

There is also a reputataion system of good/bad ie radical / puritan being implemented that might satisfy you! Thjey have been a little hush on it recently though and no real details yet other than it including more weapons and missions depending on your choices.

Can't say i'm too fond of punishing players too strongly for failing a mission, while I like the idea it would alienate the casual player-base, which is about 90% of gamers now. 

Very good points by wizkid...

All the Inquisitor Novels...Ravenor/Eisenhorn/Jaq Drago ..etc show, that Inquisitor never work alone...so maybe companions should be available( through story/ merc`s ).

A living Reputation system would be fantastic.....not only if you fail a mission ....also if you succed ...

I do love Renegade Space Marines....but !!! ....no Inquisitor...ever...killed like 5 in a row ...and a Dreadnought....

Lets stay realistic... Most enemies would be heretics or Cultist....

First up it wasn't me that said a vindicare could raise to the rank of inquisitor. It was the rulebook. So you can disagree if you want, i'm just quoting it.

While I appreciate some have drawn up the impression that their character is the minion and controlling them is part of being an inquisitor. We have already had background stories etc explaining that the current classes are the inquisitors. It's absolutely fine if you don't like that, but it is what it is and that's how the game will be marketed (such as the trailer with a crusader walking down a corridor saying "I am an inquisitor")  

Sure there aren't loads of books written about death cults and crusader inquisitors so its fair to point out that this might be a fairly new direction, but its far from impossible... But's its in their rulebook. So if you take issue with the roles of crusader and death cults not being inquisitors then that's something you can take up with GW because it's both written in their books and approved of to be in this game. So welcome to Martyr, where we have death cults and crusaders who have risen to the rank of inquisitor, but still like to go around smooshing stuff :D

I do like the idea of having less predictable enemy spawns however. Being "jumped on" rather than being in complete control over fights would be a welcome change and a little more exciting. 

Just for your reading :) here are the 11 classes or which can ascend to the rank of inquisitor. 

• Crusader
• Death Cult Assassin
• Desperado
• Hierophant
• Interrogator
• Judge
• Magos
• Primaris Psyker
• Sage
• Storm Trooper
• Vindicare Assassin

As taken from the Dark Heresy rulebook. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Dark_Heresy:_Ascension

Your complaint about character naming is silly nitpicking. Inquisitors get down & dirty in the lore...good enough for me.

There are traps & alarms...three hours played is barely scratching the surface of an unfinished game.

Failure is punishment enough. You get nothing for failing and lose the credits you may have allocated for additional support in an investigation mission. Success already provides a path to better equipment and harder missions.

There is new content inbound at the end of the week. Read the roadmap, play the new content and then come back and make some better informed comments on your thoughts.