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- On the sins of the endgame...
On the sins of the endgame...
Warhammer 40K FeedbackON ENDGAME HERESY:
While this game made impressive improvements and has achieved high standards on a pure technical standpoint (flow of the game, visuals, audio, setting,....) - a big kudos to the development team on that - an encouraging endgame is practically lacking. So while I really would love to play the game in the current state, I think its not playable on the longer run. Other (Warhammer) games hat similar problems but the focused on the endgame at least.
While NEO could say you are a small team with not so big ressources, and do not even aim for a long-term truly addictive experience, I could live with that and be on my way, if you commit endgame heresy like that :)
However in the current state not even the emperor can protect the game designers from the DESIGN SINS made in the ENDGAME:
DESIGN SIN #1: VOID CRUSADES. While the concept sounds fresh on paper to chain missions on a map and make the order interactive, the implementation especially the repeatibility sucks ages. In its current state a void crusade is interesting for 1-2 playtroughs then it gets old. This causes both uncessary development effort at NEO since all void crusades are hand crafted, and does not give players any long-term motivation. Void crusades should be DEEPLY RANDOMIZED as in other similar games allowing for endless replayabiliy. I noticed in the "hidden foes" event how much more fun it is its selecting random mission (even they are somewhat repetitive, but much for fun than void crusade layouts for sure).
DESIGN SIN#2: ENDGAME ITEMIZATION: I can safely state I know all endgame builds on all classes in your game. Since its always around enrage and debuffing as quickly as possible. Period!. There are no unique items that fundamentally change builds and playstyles (as unqiues should do) nor are there any synergies (like set bonuses). The best thing the game designers do is transfering properties that can not usually happen on item class A) to an item class B) which frees up one item spot (like the "explode on stunned enemies" purity seal). This just does not trigger the collecting spiral that usually ensures the long term motivation in these games to find this "WOW!!!!"" items.
DESIGN SIN#3: NON-SCALING / LIMITED DIFFICULTY: Even if #1 and #2 would properly pop in why would I even bother improving my builds and toons? Currently it feels like a motorway where the speed limit has been set to 113 km/h by the developers. So why should I even bother improving my BMW build to a FERRARI build it I can not drive faster anyway? This game needs scaling dificulity levels, leaderboards and appropriate challenge vs reward mechanics. And your hardcore is a joke currently btw since I rarely up to never would die on 113 anyways.
So when I read you are thinking on making seasonal characters I have to say leveling in your game is ok-ish, but not as much fun that I would like to do it over an over. An ARPG should shine in the endgame, so please fix that first before thinking on other modes. And if you copy ideas from other games try to understand why this mechanisms are working particularly well for them and see the big picture not just individual aspects (for instance cosmentics are more valuabe if you can show them off to other guys, but in your game muliplayer is limited and technologically weakly supported, especially in the endgame). I would strongly advice you to discuss your ideas/plans/roadmaps more open with the community, especially if you are a small studio and want to give us the best possible experience within the budget available....
Having critized this all, I would not have done if I would not see a big potential in your game. So if you make the right modifications I think this could evolve to a truely addictive game!
Cheers!
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I am wonderIng at times how many ppl are into the endgame here at all. 75% of times posts here are on beeing stuck in one of the early missions. Plus how many do void crusades actually? I reported a critical bug on ecru on ps4 hours after launch. The bug can not be overseen since it causes a bluescreen and yesterday after months another one spotted and reported it ....
This is why I don't think players like us will ever get what they want...it's OK, though. I started playing D3 again, AND I purchased Grim Dawn (which is fantastic...love the old school D2 vibe) yesterday, so, although I wish Neocore the best, and I wish this game the best (I do like it), I don't expect the Seasons patch to do anything for me.
I am wonderIng at times how many ppl are into the endgame here at all. 75% of times posts here are on beeing stuck in one of the early missions. Plus how many do void crusades actually? I reported a critical bug on ecru on ps4 hours after launch. The bug can not be overseen since it causes a bluescreen and yesterday after months another one spotted and reported it ....
Some people say we should still ride horses, since they move after all, so simple minded are easier to satisfy I guess.
I COULD play more builds but why should I play anything than THE best builds? To gimp myself intentionally?
EQUALITY in builds in not there, at least there should be similar attractive choices.
I have really ALL gear in the game so far, rolled billions of credits on it already.
I can play mission up to 118 with my gear already, like unholy cathedral, so what?
Tarot cards for level 100 missions base and level 110 missions base (so you can push to 118 when you get super OP as fuck, which you can if you really want to challenge yourself, just not with all builds); combined with you being able to play tarot cards that buff mission difficulties at any of their upgraded levels, so a max level 90 tarot card currently is levels 90/92/94/96/98, you should be able to play missions at any of those levels if you choose.
Second, Void Crusades should be available to co-op - the game already massively increases difficulty with a second (and presumably 3rd and 4th member) player in the party so it should scale fine; make the lives a total amongst all members and if you die and are revived that uses one of your lives total. In Hardcore, just remove the ability to revive fallen co-op partners and t5heir crusade ends when they die. Keeps the existing balance, encourages smart play not mindless run and farm play.
And that's it really. Maybe make the radical skill passives better, most people agree they are largely underpowered vs puritan (on teh crusader tree, not sure if this is the same for all classes).
To builds, sure,e nrage buyilds are a thing, so is debuffing but debuffing is a thing in ALL ARPG's, it's an internal balancer. BUT there are other builds. You just have to gear for them and think about it. Berserk builds, shield builds, even exposed state builds are a thing. The issue is that they aren't out being shown off except by a small handful of people who play a small and narrow amount of play styles.
Endgame is passable at best right now, throw in the above changes and the majority of the community will be happy.
Ignore these people raging because so and so game is better - if they feel that way, they can always play those games too. Martyr, is Martyr, but some improvements to endgame playability and our ability to push higher straight off instead of having to unlock high end missions through void crusades (because intel; only gpoing up 3 or 4 levels is too easy - the gear is balanced, you just need to give us harder mission options, because at the end of the day, yopu have an amazing story campaign in martyr and prophecy, but many people play ARPG's at endgame to mindlessly grind and relax but witha challenge to it. There's no challenge at level 100 when the max standard mission we have is level 98 with amaxed out tarot card. Give us more tarot card options so we can choose the missions we want to relax with rather then beingf orced down a vgoid crusade or to use random intel; heck give us intel that drops at up to 110 difficulties or even going higher, that'd also solve the issue to an extent.
Some people say we should still ride horses, since they move after all, so simple minded are easier to satisfy I guess.
I COULD play more builds but why should I play anything than THE best builds? To gimp myself intentionally?
EQUALITY in builds in not there, at least there should be similar attractive choices.
I have really ALL gear in the game so far, rolled billions of credits on it already.
I can play mission up to 118 with my gear already, like unholy cathedral, so what?
Tarot cards for level 100 missions base and level 110 missions base (so you can push to 118 when you get super OP as fuck, which you can if you really want to challenge yourself, just not with all builds); combined with you being able to play tarot cards that buff mission difficulties at any of their upgraded levels, so a max level 90 tarot card currently is levels 90/92/94/96/98, you should be able to play missions at any of those levels if you choose.
Second, Void Crusades should be available to co-op - the game already massively increases difficulty with a second (and presumably 3rd and 4th member) player in the party so it should scale fine; make the lives a total amongst all members and if you die and are revived that uses one of your lives total. In Hardcore, just remove the ability to revive fallen co-op partners and t5heir crusade ends when they die. Keeps the existing balance, encourages smart play not mindless run and farm play.
And that's it really. Maybe make the radical skill passives better, most people agree they are largely underpowered vs puritan (on teh crusader tree, not sure if this is the same for all classes).
To builds, sure,e nrage buyilds are a thing, so is debuffing but debuffing is a thing in ALL ARPG's, it's an internal balancer. BUT there are other builds. You just have to gear for them and think about it. Berserk builds, shield builds, even exposed state builds are a thing. The issue is that they aren't out being shown off except by a small handful of people who play a small and narrow amount of play styles.
Endgame is passable at best right now, throw in the above changes and the majority of the community will be happy.
Ignore these people raging because so and so game is better - if they feel that way, they can always play those games too. Martyr, is Martyr, but some improvements to endgame playability and our ability to push higher straight off instead of having to unlock high end missions through void crusades (because intel; only gpoing up 3 or 4 levels is too easy - the gear is balanced, you just need to give us harder mission options, because at the end of the day, yopu have an amazing story campaign in martyr and prophecy, but many people play ARPG's at endgame to mindlessly grind and relax but witha challenge to it. There's no challenge at level 100 when the max standard mission we have is level 98 with amaxed out tarot card. Give us more tarot card options so we can choose the missions we want to relax with rather then beingf orced down a vgoid crusade or to use random intel; heck give us intel that drops at up to 110 difficulties or even going higher, that'd also solve the issue to an extent.
Ignoring the "raging" is not going to help. They need to fix their problems...and there are many.
Also, the gear is balanced? lol...
The gear is not even CLOSE to being balanced. There are a few things that absolutely dominate the rest.
Tarot cards for level 100 missions base and level 110 missions base (so you can push to 118 when you get super OP as fuck, which you can if you really want to challenge yourself, just not with all builds); combined with you being able to play tarot cards that buff mission difficulties at any of their upgraded levels, so a max level 90 tarot card currently is levels 90/92/94/96/98, you should be able to play missions at any of those levels if you choose.
Second, Void Crusades should be available to co-op - the game already massively increases difficulty with a second (and presumably 3rd and 4th member) player in the party so it should scale fine; make the lives a total amongst all members and if you die and are revived that uses one of your lives total. In Hardcore, just remove the ability to revive fallen co-op partners and t5heir crusade ends when they die. Keeps the existing balance, encourages smart play not mindless run and farm play.
And that's it really. Maybe make the radical skill passives better, most people agree they are largely underpowered vs puritan (on teh crusader tree, not sure if this is the same for all classes).
To builds, sure,e nrage buyilds are a thing, so is debuffing but debuffing is a thing in ALL ARPG's, it's an internal balancer. BUT there are other builds. You just have to gear for them and think about it. Berserk builds, shield builds, even exposed state builds are a thing. The issue is that they aren't out being shown off except by a small handful of people who play a small and narrow amount of play styles.
Endgame is passable at best right now, throw in the above changes and the majority of the community will be happy.
Ignore these people raging because so and so game is better - if they feel that way, they can always play those games too. Martyr, is Martyr, but some improvements to endgame playability and our ability to push higher straight off instead of having to unlock high end missions through void crusades (because intel; only gpoing up 3 or 4 levels is too easy - the gear is balanced, you just need to give us harder mission options, because at the end of the day, yopu have an amazing story campaign in martyr and prophecy, but many people play ARPG's at endgame to mindlessly grind and relax but witha challenge to it. There's no challenge at level 100 when the max standard mission we have is level 98 with amaxed out tarot card. Give us more tarot card options so we can choose the missions we want to relax with rather then beingf orced down a vgoid crusade or to use random intel; heck give us intel that drops at up to 110 difficulties or even going higher, that'd also solve the issue to an extent.
This is one of the best posts of all time (made on this forum). Listen to this guy, PLEASE.
I installed Diablo 3 again last night (first time playing in years), and I realized that, for the most part, their game is infinitely superior to yours (despite some Martyr players, including myself, blindly hating on it in the past) simply because they actually did what BYCROM said.
Doing GRs is fun.
Unique items are fun.
Difficulty is fun.
Please, for the love of God, tell your leader to swallow his pride and add what any ARPG should have.
EDIT: His last point is 100% truth as well. Cosmetics for what? Multiplayer is horrible.
Set this current order state as My default.