I don't have any argument with these points, per se. I do feel you're focusing on the beta more than I am, because I'm not talking about one date or one nudged margin. It's the (relatively -- like every single one so far) frequency of them doing it. 

I worry that marketing and sales and whoever else are running too much of the show. The closer and closer you release the beta to the (for the sake of argument) fixed date of final release...the less useful the beta is for what you're doing. May 23rd to Jun 5th is ~13 days. What are you going to learn in 2 weeks that you haven't in two months? If the beta gets pushed out to May 31st, then it's completely pointless, because most people are going to wait 5 days and play then, rather than having anything they do undone. Which means the dev cycle gets pushed back further for needed testing.

So this is a case where...cracks are showing. Sometimes, cracks are part of a good structure and they're no big deal. Sometimes cracks start showing and no one speaks up and the whole building falls down. This wouldn't be the first company or coding project undone by feature creep, or making too many promises and not keeping them, or creating a lot of hype and not producing anything *coughsdukenukemforevercoughs* for years and years. I don't particularly see that as likely, for Martyr or Neocore. But the marketplace and the gaming community are not as forgiving as you seem to be. And it's surprising how little it takes to wreck something with incredible potential.

@KHALL‍ 

So I'm going to make some assumptions to prove a point but feel free to argue any of them.

1) The release build is finished.

At least acording to the info provided PC could have released on May 11th. So at this point there is a final version available that could be written on a disc and shipped if needed.

2) The beta could have released on May 21st.

So if the final build is done then it would also be true that there is a stable version that could have been released at the announced time. So why was it delayed?

3) The purpose of a beta is to gather information regarding a build from the testers.

So if we accept that there is a finished build that can be released then the beta may not just be a glorified demo (unlike most betas currently) and may actually be intended to test upcoming features or changes that can be patched into the game at/after release.

4) The announced beta date was entirely intended / The delay was unforseen.

So why delay the beta if a finished build was available? Perhaps there was something so important that Neocore wanted to test it with the community even though it may not be available in the release build and compiling this new version caused an unforseen delay. Additionally Neocore has no intention of updating this beta as it is so close to release so instead of omitting this feature they deemed it was more important to delay the beta so they could gather feedback/data regarding it.

__________

So if you follow this logic then there was nothing wrong with the beta's release date. In this case it sounds more like feature creep than a delay due to a problem. This means that your strategy just doesn't apply in this situation as Neocore could have released a beta build on time but decided that it was more important to compile the new build and use the beta to gather additional feedback/data.

‍ 

Announced dates for releases:

- May 11th 

then

- May 21st (Jun 5th)

then

- May 22nd or 23rd (8 hours before announced date/time)

then...?

----

- Warhammer 40k Inquisitor Martyr will in beta May 30th. 

     - Oh we got done early and dropped it on May 27th!

---

Bad/false information is always worse than no information at all. Unless there's a contract or a publisher deal or something where there's some legal/financial advantage to announcing imaginary dates. This is certainly not a problem limited to Neocore, or Inquisitor. It was just a...suggestion/observation about how to manage expectations better. I'm not sure how it turned into the largest thread on the board.

I'm not saying Neocore has handled it badly, even. I'm just saying, if there are more delays, it would behoove them to be more careful with their estimates. Because I want this game to succeed. And there's lots of our players who aren't hardcore 40k fanatics who are just playing this as an aRPG. Those people won't stick it out forever. Whereas they might if they weren't disappointed over and over. 

Whether it makes me, them, their mom, or their wallet entitled is mostly irrelevant. DoW3 is dead and they just announced they're not even going to try to revive it...because so many people were so disappointed in it that no one will give them any more money for it. Business is all about the $$$. I can love this game as passionately as I want...if there's not enough motive to keep producing it, all the servers will be shut down in a year and it'll be a footnote in a wikipedia article.

That's all. 

As I noted in another response the beta was delayed, they explained why and set a new timeline (which hasnt expired yet). Honestly, what more do you want them to do?

And let's not pretend that if they said 'soon(tm)' that the forums wouldn't be hammered every day by players asking when the beta will be released (you know, they want an actual date).

A good community manager manages expectations and so far Neocore has done a good job at keeping the community informed. Sure, it could be better and no company will ever be entirely transparent but I don't see anything wrong with how they have communicated so far. Feel free to explain specifically what they could have said to better manage expectations though.

I've written video games, I've worked on mods, I've done IT, and worked 'in the real world' for almost 30 years now.

No one is upset about the beta. Or when it drops. The problem, in fact, comes from the beta. As far as I know, no one is holding a gun to their head, saying promise us the beta and then don't deliver. If the beta was off the table, we could happily play until Jun 5th (or 7th, or 23rd, or August). Now, knowing it's going to get wiped, but not when, makes the alpha pretty pointless. That's the problem. People are hanging in limbo, waiting for something they were told was coming.

No one is saying we're upset about the beta, or we feel like Neocore owes it to us, or that we don't appreciate it. No one is upset about the delay. At all. While most industries are less flexible than video games, delay and life happens. What I'm, at least, trying to talk about, is how you handle information release. There's no reason to say a hard date. Unless you're 100% sure you can meet it. No one asked them to give us a beta on May 22nd, it's super cool that they do. But, it's also introduced a massive disruption to the game, to the playerbase, which concerns me for the long term health of the game, because some players are going to drift off and find another game. And if this pattern continues it'll be more and more.

I'm not sure why you have to keep painting this as 'entitled', when it's simply a suggestion/philosophical comment on how you handle information release. The fact is, it's better right now, for them to say 'soon' rather than set a date and then not make it. That's all. If you can't make it, don't set a date. Don't make promises you can't keep. I think my mom taught me that when I was like 5. It doesn't matter what industry you work in. That's basic human common sense.

It's irrational to keep twisting this into me demanding they give us a product right now, or that I'm upset at all, or about the beta. I'm just (nicely) suggesting they do better at managing expectations so they don't poison the playerbase before the game ever gets off the ground. It's very, very easy not to say a hard and fast date. You just don't say it. You just say 'soon'. Or 'we're working on it'. That's all you have to do. 

Also, just because something is an industry norm, doesn't mean it's good or right or that it's what all companies should do. Being better than the other guy is supposed to be the whole point of being in business.

K.

So you want a developer to be like Vavle? No one benefits from that. Again, delays happen all the time. People are late to work, shipments get forgotten/routed incorrectly, productions lines break down, network systems go down, etc. It's the rule of the 9's and even if someone promises 99% efficiency they are still down almost 4 days a year. This is how the real world works and while most things go as expected when problems occur the best thing you can do is provide information regarding the delay and update the timeline. Neocore did both of those things.

Again, maybe my perspective is different because I have worked as a developer in the past but they don't make money from pushing out a beta when you want; they make money by making sure the beta improves the quality of the release version. If the delay in the beta would cost them a few sales then that just proves how entitled some gamers really are.

I am not overly concerned about the game release date, it'll be 5th June give or take a few days, no worries, as Khall says it's the info and how it's presented that lets them down.

Personally when i saw the "Release dates set in stone" comment posted previously i just laughed, you dont post things like that as they will inevitably come back to bite you...  

I'm not mad, and feel bad if that's how it came off. It's not about the delay, at all. More time to play is cool. 

It's the (informational) limbo, that's the problem. You set expectations when you tell someone to expect something. "We're working on it" or "(add a week to estimates) it'll be ready the 31st" - "Oh we're dropping two days early!" Versus "It'll be ready now, no wait, now. Er, wait, a little while longer now."

:)

K.

I haven't ranted, tantrumed, pouted, demanded my money back, posted malicious rumors about the dev's moms, or otherwise expressed anything other than 'why set a date and not keep it?'. Again. I am aware how normal this is in the industry. I can read IGN or RPS and see that 90% of games are delayed and that the initial release date is never what is actually stated.

I'd like to see Neocore do better than that. At least by the 2nd or 3rd delay. And rather than set expectations too high...set them realistically. Whether or not that's a rational expectation is mostly beside the point. Also, I think waiting until 8 hours before you say you're going to do something, to say you're not, is probably not the best way of handling delays.

My concern has been very clearly, even, not personal; instead focused on the health and success of the game. The gaming marketplace is not only flooded with games, right now, but caters to a very on-demand, instant, high-speed access mentality. If you or Neocore see someone expressing worry about the long term outcome of their actions, on the health of the game, as criticism...you're being way to insular and sensitive. More plainly, if you disappoint people enough, break promises enough, people don't want to play with you any more. That's, by the way, not entitlement. That's how the world works.

Maybe addressing it on the board...magnifies what was intended to be a comment, rather than a raging rant. And blows a concern way out of proportion. If so, then my apologies.

K.

Sure they will never find all things that work incorrectly and neither will we but don't forget that the players are human and not payed and happiely do a lot of things to get ahead of others just for the sake of beeing ahead. If you let those greedy players test stuff they'll take a totaly different approach.

Sure it's unfun if a realease date is canceled or later then expected but I realy don't think Neocore do this this for fun because they like mad people so much ^^. At least a little truth must be with it ^^.

The beta was a nice extra that will be helpful but it certainly not needed before release. As a result it looks like Neocore is trying to further optimize the release build and needs a little more time to make sure the beta is stable. Sure they could have released the beta without this update but it makes far more sense to use the beta to test the updated build prior to release. Also, as previously mentioned, the beta was not originally planned so are you really conplaining about getting an updated build to play before release?

Maybe my perspective is different because I have worked in the industry earlier in my career but Neocore is being very professional about their communication and treatment of the community. The fact that they are even providing the early supporters with a beta and not just letting them play the alpha until release is far more than most devs would have ever done. There is absolutely nothing wrong about delaying a beta so that they can get proper feedback before release.

As for the rest regarding additional delays, so far I haven't seen anything that would cause such concern. Neocore is being forthcoming with updates and is trying to crunch before release. A slight delay to the beta means they are doing their jobs. I'm sure we will know in a day or two if the game will be worth it or not so this beta is a huge gamble for them. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt until we have cause to doubt their word.

Ima survive a day or two, and it's not a big deal. But...I'm also going to take every date they give us, from now on, with a huge grain of salt. So back to my original point...setting expectations realistically is better.

I don't agree that it's not practical advice. Right now, people aren't playing the alpha. Because anything that you do will get undone when we're wiped. These players are the core of this game. Early adopters are who you want to cultivate. I'm not saying they 'owe' us anything. But there's definitely advantages to them, to produce the beta. Every delay means a few of those people drift away, find another game.

And while I'm aware this is the 'norm' in the gaming industry, it's still bad policy. Especially when you announce it 8 hours before your supposed delivery. It would be far, far better from a business and tactical standpoint to set expectations for further in the future and then surprise people with an early release, rather than the reverse.

How much money would you bet, that they'll be on time with the final release on Jun 5th? Do you think you'd bet less money now, that they've been 'unexpectedly delayed' two or three times? Neocore is functionally the GM of our WH40k game. Now you can't believe everything the GM says...does that seem problematic to you?

(This is not a slam on Neocore, or the staff I've dealt with who were uniformly awesome.)

And the Star Trek quote was intended to be funny, not practical. Neocore has been very respectful of the players and done a great job setting expectations, especially when you consider that the beta is their way of trying ro offset the release delay.

You figure out how long it will take. Then you double it. And tell them that's when it will be done. 

Announcing  dates when they're not 'firm' just undermines you, and Martyr. :/

If you could let me know that would be great...

PS

I did say before we would see a "Push back sometime this week"..

Just saying like 

i have one question to the relase!:

is transfering the beta char to the final release? or will be again a roll back at the release?

I only feel sorry for the people who took their day(s) off already to play and test the new build.

Looking forward to the update regardless.