Is shop-refreshing really considered a bug? It's been something in ARPGs since the days of D1, and this is the first time I've seen someone refer to it as a bug/exploit. In D2, the developers actively expected it (they stated as much in the section of the official strategy guide where they talk about systems of the game), and there are a couple examples where the shop seems built entirely around expecting you to do so.

I'm a couple levels away from 20 and I haven't even broken T1, and since the patch I've put in... 40 hours, give or take.

Now, here's the thing, and I expect I'm not being clear enough because it's not an uncommon issue with me, I don't want fixed "get this" funneling. I just want the ability to either socket in an ingredient pre-crafting that gives me a bonus towards what I need, or a post-build modification process (which I see is coming, yes) that allows me to socket in something to increase the stat my build focuses on. Some way to tune crafting a bit further, without just getting one single item time and again. For example, I have a really cool looking assault armor. I adore it... but it drops my HP by 500 and my damage reduction by a rather large percentage (proportionally speaking). If I could modify it, I'd be using it... and it'd likely be something I stuck with for a long while.

Generally speaking, I prefer changing gear in games slowly--if I like something I'll stick with it. That being said, my 8 AP chainsword does not... do well... in T2 content. It flags in T1 random content, in fact. And every other production chainsword over the last ten hours of play has been 4-6 AP.

So, I'm not arguing for a BIS factory or anything like that at all. I just want to see more of a system that allows me (and others) to take a weapon they really like, and keep that weapon to keep the playstyle they're enjoying. And to do so without either resorting to the shop, or spending 2+ days waiting for RNG and T2 crafting mat spam to actually spit out a higher-tier version of the weapon.

I don't care for the greataxe, but it's not a bad weapon. I like the 2h greatsword. I prefer the chainsword to the power hammer, power axe, and power sword. The other three are still effective, they just don't fit how I play. That doesn't make them bad weapons. I adore the heavy bolter and the grenade launcher. Doesn't make them "I win" weapons. Outside of some things I've brought up that will need adjusting in the future... the game currently scratches a lot of itches and actually has room for a lot of playstyles. And I love that. A lot of games that claim that are still largely monobuild. This isn't, and I would definitely like it to remain that way.

Sometimes, when I put my designer hat on, my criticism seems more harsh than intended. Rest assured, it's not.

This post says almost everything that needs saying about the way loot works currently.

There's nothing as bad as getting a weapon with one tank trait, one DPS trait, and one random "wat" stat in a crafting queue... especially if you burned 2nd tier mats on it to avoid that.

I'm not trying to stop anyone commenting on problems with now. I'm just pointing out what's already due for an overhaul and seeing if people have taken that into consideration before proposing fixed based on the current system. Re crafting again the same point applies, there are numerous different ways to modify a weapon or it's enchants within the skill tree. Sure they aren't implemented yet. I am just pointing out that it should be taken into consideration if your going to try and propose fixes. The secondary reason for my message is reassurance.  Normally when players say they aren't satisfied with something and you inform them it's due a very specific overhaul that will likely settle their concerns - they are then happy. Usually. 

Regarding your final point of players preferring to play rather than examine their gear - Have to say I don't really support this. If anything adding other dimensions to games other than repeatedly killing mobs is a welcome change to most. If there wasn't trips to town that involved a few minutes of character management then a player would quite soon either develop serious RSI or boredom. Of course a ratio has to be maintained of time in game vs town, but there has to be things to do in town and crafting / modifying weapons is certainly one of the most motivating things. 

My gripe against pre made items is that it promotes a pre scripted build meta where there will always be something or a set or items that is superior. People go on a forum and they farm untill they get this. Any form of diversity is lost because people will know the "xyz" set is superior in the current meta. Sure it's easier to farm for. But it's also more restrictive in my view than it is additive to the player's available choices by presenting them with a very narrow range of viable options rather than a wide array of viable choices. - Going back to my earlier days of D3 - There were far more viable builds available in the Pre legendary item spam we saw as the game went futher into development. When everyone had rares you had literally dozens of viable builds. Not saying it's impossible to manage, but it is a risk. 

- Not sure if I made this clear - But the purpose of a modification system isn't to craft perfect items. It's to modify items you find in the wild that need some minor modifications to become perfect or at least noticeably better. Without this feature a game becomes a complete slog and people complain (such as within this thread) that finding loot is too hard. Just take the classic system of rerolling 1 stat per weapon for eg or 1x enchant. That alone increases the chances of a gear becoming usable by an absolutely huge margin.

And that's the thing... I'm commenting on what is needed currently, so that the feedback can be taken into account in the future: such as the way shields work--that doesn't make the game bad, it just means that there's a feature that didn't quite pass muster; heck I'm still playing my sword and board even though I'm posting criticism on it! I do understand that they'll take it into account in the future, but the more detailed feedback they recieve, the more likely we are to be satisfied with the end result.

Re gear vs. playing: what I mean is that the ratio is currently high--if there is too much time spent in town, it's just as detrimental as not enough reasons to go back. I'm sure that with our Segmentum Fortress, Forge upgrades, and such, that the gear will be easier to personalize and tweak. I fill that time largely by interacting with the community--general chat is usually quite lively and interesting... but there are limits. Which flows neatly into my next point...

Outside of artifacts/relics/whatever legendaries will be called here, I have no qualms about lacking "pre-made" gear--just some finer control over the end result (like stacking optimization mats should, in theory, give me an optimized item, not vendor trash). There's no reason for me to spend an hour crafting an item when I will get a better result just refreshing the trader a couple times--currently T2 crafting mats do not seem to actually provide a noticable benefit, which means that the crafting is largely worthless. And that's disappointing, because it's been proven to be a beneficial element to ARPGs. With how nicely ranged weapons allow different playstyles currently, no one ranged weapon is truly superior to another, so there's no Must Take at the moment beyond what fits your playstyle... but it would be nice if making an item would take into account something so that the end result perhaps added a benefit to your playstyle. Like, again, Grim Dawn's component setup. Drop in X item to add healt on hit, or Damage Reduction, or - Cooldown on Y Skill. I much prefer GD's components to Van Helsing's Essences, honestly--I'd rather farm up specialist "ammunition" and "stocks" to change features over the way essences were handled.

So, let's say I'm clearly a tank. If I craft a shield, it should weight Damage Reduction more heavily than, say, movement speed. If I'm a sniper, armor crafting should weight crit chance or bonus aimed skill damage higher than +% melee bonus. That, coupled with the long craft times, are the largest issues I have with itemization as-is.

Hydra, two cents from a casual player that spends far too much time min-maxing other games:

I avoided min-maxing there for a while, because I didn't feel the need to on my heavy weapon crusader. I enjoyed myself, and the rebalance felt good, and far less slog-like. Then I decided to try a different class...

And on my sword and board crusader, it's been absolutely essential to min-max my gear stats. Until my block was up to 20% and damage resist up to 40%, I was too busy melting to fairly small groups for the class to feel at all useful--starting investigation missions I could practically AFK through with support and heavy crusaders were brutal slogs--I spent the first twelve levels with a ranged weapon primary, which kinda goes contrary to the whole idea of a tank class. Two handed melee doesn't have that issue.

And so I went back to being a horrid munchkin, and the gear crafting system spat out downgrade after downgrade; burning valuable second tier crafting materials, time (an hour per craft in an ARPG is steep for a system that is expected to be integral to the experience), and patience--to the point where I started to play the old Diablo-cheese. Relogging until I finally got a decent piece of gear.

For more casual players, or players trying to avoid min-maxing, that can be hugely detrimental to the experience--it's not the idea of "I need this tier gear because reasons" but "I need this specific stat to be X before I can even start being marginally effective at my class choice, until then I am a useless addition to the team/cannot solo content reasonably".

I return to Grim Dawn, because I've logged far too many hours in that and it's become my default comparison... in Grim Dawn, I can simply modify my gear by right clicking a component with stats I need, and still have room for a second type of upgrade as well. So if I get a shield that gives decent stats but horrible mitigation/block, I can boost that with two upgrade pieces quickly, and boom. Viable item, no severe min-maxing needed, and I can go back to the business of killing things. Which is what I'm playing the game to do, not idle around waiting for a craft queue to finish.

It sounds like we have basically had totally different gaming experiences. All I can put that down to is having played a history of different games, clearly you have tastes of how you like and expect things to be done, and the same goes for me. 

I've been used to random roll enchants - usually re-rolling takes about 30 seconds at most. Even in a randomised system. - Sure it requires lots of materials to collect but that's the compromise or rather thats the controlling variable. If you can choose what you want instantly then you need a rare and specific material to do so, similar to how PoE works. Otherwise you end up with everyone having exactly what they want all the time, playing the game should be at the core - getting the gear by playing the game more specifically. Playing the game to find materials so you can craft what you want precisely is absolutely fine too. But martyr doesn't have that. 

My issue with insta-crafting is that games give  players something to limit what they can craft. You typically have either
a) no recipe - go out and get it - one at a time or at the very least a limited set reward from leveling such as three pieces.

b) no mats - go get some - You will have to invest time to get as many as you need.

The above two are the most common ways of placing restriction on crafting so that it isn't just a case of giving players whatever they want whenever they want. As martyr has an absence of these two controlling variables, seeing as materials are so damn common - they place a timer on it. If you want to remove the timer because it somehow annoys you that you have to wait then ok. But you cannot do that without changing the entire system at the core. 

The games that are constantly referred to which have unlimited crafting always have something that stops or restricts a player from instantly kitting themselves out as soon as they reach a new level. Mostly it's a lack of having the recipe, if not that then it'll most likely be that they need materials and they aren't bountiful. Now you can argue as much as you like that the green gear is bad and ergo you should have 100x more of it. But that's something I just disagree with. Spending the first 30 minutes when you reach a new power level crafting 500 pieces of gear to sift through and customise is exactly what your asking for - yet it's also at the same time what your telling me you don't want, because if that time spent is re-rolling it's somehow bad - but if its spent crafting 500 peices its somehow fine? 

Therein we come to the heart of the misunderstanding... I'm taking umbrage with the craft timer itself, not the requirement to find recipes. I don't get all recipes in GD, not even close. I'm still missing relic blueprints I desperately need... and that's fine. Because the gateway, having to find my blueprints, means by the time I have a blueprint I will have the mats to cook it. So it doesn't feel like I'm grinding one thing to grind another to grind another--the gating feels less painful, even if the same amount of time is spent overall.

I don't need more of the gear. I need mechanisms in place to make what I craft feel meaningful. Loot is a driving force in many ARPGs, and when you introduce crafting to a game you need to make the system feel like it's a meaningful addition, rather than an afterthought added because "crafting is hip right now".

Secondly, I feel that my full point isn't quite getting across, either. I have to work to get the high level components... repgrinding, for example, to get the mid to top end socketables and recipes to craft them, and then going through challenge content to get decent amounts of the components needed to make the better components to make the item to socket the components into.

My time, while still used in a 2-3 hour block for a piece of upgraded gear, is spent more actively, rather than "dump 2nd tier mats into window, go do stuff for an hour only to find out that literally anything I craft from the get-go is a downgrade to champ drops". Even artificer recipes are currently worse for me than green loot nabbed from investigations (and infinitely worse than dropped purple gear in C3 runs).

Speaking as a designer, rather than a gamer, you have to think very carefully about how you introduce features into any form of entertainment; first and foremost they need to be directly useful to the player. If it isn't, it needs to be retooled or it needs to be cut. I've experienced having to cut huge portions of mechanics out of a game, because they didn't fit, and it sucks... you have to tune things enough to appeal to the widest possible portion of your playerbase, not just the hardcore niche fans. Sometimes that means caving on a feature that a decently sized group is saying needs to be altered, such as this. Others, it means removing a feature entirely and rebuilding the concept from the ground up.

Well crafting at a base at worst is 60 minutes, which can be upgraded to be something like 30% slower. Then that's also to create Three total items. So it's not really as painful as you make out once upgraded. 

With regards to the Uniques and Semi-Uniques I think they have that part covered with relic weapons, these are pre defined "BIS" gear for each subsector which would hopefully define a build etc. As for other armor pieces I agree it would be nice to see more uniques etc drop. Although you could maybe make the argument that the IV patterns semi do the job with their pre-determined 3x stats for an item. Granted you might spend a long long time gathering ones that are half decent. 

The thing is though I think the perk system is doing the job of a legendary item or semi unique in terms of giving passives that impact gameplay. By modifying build and plays style. That being said having some randomized drops that are "BIS" for certain builds might be a fairly good idea but perhaps the devs don't want it turning into a loot hunt where everyone hunts for the exact same items. Just a thought. 

Re remaining cautious - No arguments there, without people who are skeptical it's hard to keep them on their toes. Just as long as you have the occasional white knight to help maintain the order :D

Replying to two of your posts at once.

First, I'm not remarking on the future of the classes or balance in that long min-max post, I'm giving feedback as to how it feels right now. Having to min-max to become marginally effective as a tanky character hurts the play experience now, and has been commented on in-game to some great length, usually followed by "get a greatsword/axe and back it up with ranged". It's definitely feedback they need to see so they know that the setup is borked (and as a tank, the tree that situationally increases my damage reduction is locked from the start!). More hit points is only useful once you break a pretty substantial damage reduction threshold, so having added an additional 1800 HP doesn't do me much good when I take (against cultist trash-pulls) as much just jet-packing into the first of three ranged blobs. Ranged combat is currently nice, feels beefy and solid. Even 2h melee feels like righteous smiting.

Second, your defense of crafting times. Without the ability to fix more useful enchants (stacking T2 crafting mats does not, currently, seem to actually have any positive effect towards generating useful stuff), it feels like a waste. I burned six entire hours yesterday just trying to get a better shield, and in the end I was better served spending two minutes refreshing the trader; where I got better armor, an outright upgrade to my weapon, and finally got some decent accessories. Before you respond with "well sword and board isn't balanced yet", that also happened on my heavy weapon character. At 60 minutes raw per green, it takes longer than having your hirelings craft gear in BDO (which has a lot of complaining about having such a loooong crafting time for such minimal results), and that's an MMO with the excuse of being an MMO.

Back to the example of Grim Dawn, once more. I choose the weapon. I click craft. I cry a little at how much of my hoard of iron bits it takes per found-recipe crafting (accessories hurt). I click craft again. And again until I have a decent weapon, which I'll probably use for several hours unless a Unique or Epic drops. Total time spent, maybe five minutes (largely involving scrolling and comparing).

Why did I bring up GD? What's my point? Where was Cawl hiding? FIND OUT NEXT POST ON--wait, no. Ahem, pardon the attempt at humor. My point is that crafting here is clearly intended to be integral to the experience, and so it should provide a cut above the loot I find in the field, especially if it takes large amounts of real world time per item. 30 minutes as a "best time" is not insubstantial, and Artificer items are still going to hover around an hour+ as Moep points out.

Stepping out of my gamer shoes, and into my former designer shoes... players do not like spending time away from what they got into a game for. There's a huge reason why crafting and enchanting crunch is thrown out the window in favor of finding "ready made" equipment in pen and paper games (before the argument begins, crunch is crunch, mechanics and balance are integral and concepts do cross over between digital and physical), because the implication of a time sink, one that affects their character and not them, is enough to act as a deterrent because "they'll find better in the wild". Speaking from experience, building a crafting system is difficult and incredibly aggravating to balance. It takes extensive testing, feedback, and throwing out huge chunks of what you thought was acceptable because the players just don't like it. Generally, in my experience as both a gamer and a former designer... players want what they make to be better in some easily definable way, and they want to have at least a little control over the final result, or they won't take the chance. And that'd be sad, given the depths we're getting hints of in the research tree and play. They clearly want us to be excited about it.

I only wanted to inform the discussion of how to change the current content when there is already information on how the feature will be changed to take into consideration. Not sure sure why it's been met with such defence. Fair enough if people don't care about whats coming next, but it does have concrete implications for what's being discussed. Really I support anyone who says what they don't like about the game. I hope everyone continues to do so. 

The perfect eg is what you say about the ratio of time in base vs time on mission - Yes it's high - it's because people are bored and trying to min / max. It's an issue of the current build sure... But as I suggested - rather than discussing drastic overhauls of the sytem, why not take into consideration that the proposed changes to the power level structure will vastly change how we experience and use crafting.   

It's also dangerous to funnel items. You want players to have diversity and creativity when it comes to making builds etc. There is a danger if you take this too far you end up hampering those who want to be more creative. What if I want a crit build shield for my specific perks. Why put those players at a disadvantage to finding gear and make the assumption that all players will want the same stats on the same weapons. I see the why, but i'm concerned of the repercussions as its aim is clear to make gearing easier. But it does also come at a cost of taking away from diversity. What I can't understand though is that with the current system if an item drops and a stat isn't ideal, you take it back to your techie and you change it for something else.. simple and effective - it works in the most successful games of the genre and still actively encourages players to farm. 

Final - Final point - Bringing the shop abuse bug into the argument repeatedly really needs to be dropped - clearly it's something that needs removing from the game as an exploit, if that is the right word. 

Well Hydra, there's a reason I keep bringing up Grim Dawn here... and that's because while a lot of gamers might not admit it, we hate having to sit there and reroll enchants for any period longer than a half hour to get what we want. That's what makes GD's components so nice. I look, and I socket precisely what I need into the gear. Full stop. That's why we were all OCD in Torchlight about getting the best quality ember, D2 about getting the best grade of a certain gem type, etc etc... because random-roll enchants are aggravating and you're better served (in the long run) by socketing something in. But, in Grim Dawn the socketables are more like what fixed enchantments are in other games--instead of a teeny stat increase, they functionally are a predictable enchantment with a fairly noticable boost in a specific area.

I want to see more of that, because I have a short attention span. If I'm not enjoying my time, and I'll be real, 10 hours of trying to find an upgrade for a weapon to fit my playstyle, when literally every other weapon I've found has later-game viable versions including the lasgun, but the one I enjoy the most doesn't... then that brings the whole "play your way" to a screeching halt. I have an attack 18 lasgun in my inventory, but I have yet to find an attack 10 chainsword. What gives?

That also hooks into another comment you made elsewhere about being able to craft decent equipment right from the start. So? Just because you don't want to twink your character doesn't mean the rest of us don't appreciate the possibility. God knows I wouldn't have gotten anywhere near the number of characters I have in Grim Dawn if I hadn't been able to craft them decent relics off the bat after my first character, because nobody wants to do the worst of the slog again and again.

Clearly it's your frustration of not being able to quickly get min / max gear that means the gearing process is the problem for you because as you imply - if you don't have good gear then the game isn't enjoyable, I didn't say it isn't a current issue. Chiefly because the features that make this process easier / aka modification is in the next patch.

But that doesn't mean an unintentional bypass of playing the game to gear up isn't something that shouldn't be removed. By the same logic doing a gold hack or item duplication glitch in a game is excusable because grinding the items isn't something you enjoy. Either way the abused system needs removing because if left people will exploit it, to the detriment of their enjoyment and of others. 

Can we just agree that logging in and out is a pretty terrible way a game developer should allow their players to farm and agree that the game needs ways where the player can obtain more useful loot, which is basically included in the official response as well as in the forthcoming features? You agree with me but just seem to want to continue to argue? xD still... 

One things i've come to the realization of, as a fellow min-maxer. Is within the future intention for the leveling progress there is little need for such a level of attention towards eeking out every % of damage. I say so because the goal (as stated by neocore) is that each power level takes somewhere around 4 hours to complete. After that time a new gear set will be sought.

One of the issues I think  is present at the moment but won't be by the time the next large milestone is here is that people take the time to min/max like it's an "End game" and therefore it really magnifies the issue of having to replace it in the next power level with sub optimal gear. Presumably there will be nothing stopping people from doing this in the game, but 4 hours of play being one power level, meaning to the average gamer every 1-2 nights you will have an entirely new gear set... Well I can't see myself getting that attached anymore and sure i'll equip stuff that suits my weapon when possible, but as long as I know it's all futile then i'll happily just focus on the content im playing rather than the gear that i'm wearing. 

TLDR - Need to stop treating the gearing system like an endgame min/max and more like a leveling phase of a game which will be far more rapid (as stated by neocore) once rebalanced. Any issues with non progression re damage numbers is really another topic.

With regards to the "smart loot" system which you describe i'm in 2 minds about it. Yes... It'll have the effect of making gearing far easier and builds inherently being far more optimised. It's a pretty fair idea. But two things come to mind. 

• Randomness creates possibilities - Lets say for EG there is a "Perk" that makes a particular skill automatically crit on a weapon type. For this character crit % is now a redundant stat. Crit damage however is entirely appropriate.

While perhaps a little simplistic I think the above highlights how combining stats might also take away from the build diversity and complexity that might be integrated with perks. Admittedly it's fairly awkward to get the gear you desire but this is nothing new to the ARPG genre. Once you are able to modify weapons using the crafting / modification feature it'll mitigate most of these issues much like enchantment did for the Diablo series. 

what you pointed out though wasn't a need for min max, it was an issue with balance between play styles. Melee hasn't been compensated for in it's base stats for the huge amounts of extra damage it takes. We still await any form of solution for this :D

I'm not saying stats don't make a build good or not, you can boost your damage by a notable % with gear and optimization. I was merely raising the point that if your gear is ever changing then reaching that point of optimization will become fairly rare. Which will be the case in the majority of the leveling experience.

Should there become a greater emphasis on gearing at any point I just also wanted to raise the point that randomised gear is standard of the genre and while its frustrating to not get what you want - that's why people play for the most part. But to sooth the journey most designers allow you to customise gear, which we currently don't have access to but will. Just wanted to see if you had taken this into account with you proposed solution.

Re the shop - It's my view that if the fastest way to gear in a game is to repeatedly log in and out then yes it is my belief that it's a feature that should be changed. You yourself make the argument that a player should spend a higher proportion of time in mission rather than in town, yet you seem happy spending an equal portion outside of the game in order to gear effectively!

Not saying it has to be removed, it's either a case of make the player have less money - so they have to make choices. Or impose a limit some other way. There are 100 ways around it but honestly I don't think it should ever be part of game design that players repeatedly exit the game in order to benefit. 

and finally... returning to my previous point for one last time. 

I'm only pointing out that you are arguing for things that are already there :D - Re keeping your chainsword however - I'm not certain you will be able to change attack rating outside of a weapons base power level. It's certainly something players could request as it isn't reasonable. But you can't have a power level system which requires new gear sets based on attack rating.. and expect to keep the same weapon for long periods, without upgrading it a la shop each time. Finally... item modification is nearly always instant. Don't think there is any reason this game will differ, so I really can't see changing an item to something more useful being that horrible. Yes it'll require mats, yes it'll probably be random, otherwise it's too easy. 

it seems i've got my swords crossed and pretty much responded to your post in the other thread. 

TLDR - We agree on the issue. We disagree on the solution. I get your point re the issue, I honestly do. But as to why I disagree with your solution.. you will have to go to the other thread...